Braves Journal, The House That Mac Built

Scarred, but smarter.

25 Jul

Braves 4, Marlins 3

Atlanta Braves vs. Florida Marlins – July 24, 2012

Another one-run game, but this time we had the correct result. The Braves should have had a lot more than four runs — Mark Buehrle was all over the place (partly due to Laz Diaz behind the plate, calling a predictably unpredictable strike zone), giving up five hits, four walks, and a hit batsman in five innings, but the Braves only scratched three runs off him, leaving the bases loaded in both the third and the fourth.

Hudson had one of his oh-no-oh-okay games, giving up three runs in the first two innings but then retiring the last 16 men he faced, coming out after needing just 80 pitches to get through 7 innings. O’Flaherty and Kimbrel shut the door effectively. Uggla was 0-3 but he only struck out once, which almost looks like progress if you squint.

277 Responses to “Braves 4, Marlins 3”

  1. 1
    Parish Says:

    From the previous thread on Teheran:

    Telegraphing makes sense. Both Teheran’s FB and change were getting hit pretty hard.

  2. 2
    RobBroad4th Says:

    When did Uggla start hitting last year? A similar second half from him would be huge.

  3. 3
    ububba Says:

    IIRC, his hitting streak began just before the all-star break.

    Right now, the only thing Uggla does well at the plate is take a walk.

  4. 4
    Dan Says:

    Dodgers got Hanley Ramirez.

  5. 5
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Dodgers fans have to be ecstatic. Also, just to highlight the difference between what Wren and Dodgers are willing to pay for Dempster (according to the latest reports): Allen Webster is the same age as Delgado, but still in AA, where his numbers are actually worse than what Delgado has done at the major league level. I doubt he would even crack our top 10. Dempster really screwed the Cubs.

  6. 6
    Adam R Says:

    I’m sure there are some Dodgers fans who are having Manny flashbacks.

  7. 7
    Trace Says:

    Anyone know how Mac’s doing?

  8. 8
    Trace Says:

    From last thread,
    I liked TDKR but the Dark Knight is a really high benchmark. It should have won the Oscar that year. I thought Bane was pretty cool but no one can come close to Ledger’s Joker. Anne Hathaway was good and I think this was Bale’s best performance as Batman.

    I’d still say that Nolan’s Batman and Lord of the Rings are the best trilogies ever, with Star Wars right behind.

  9. 9
    sdp Says:

    Marlins got basically nothing for Hanley. Dodgers pick up the rest of the financial obligations.

    What an embarassing organization. Ozzie should be the next to go.

  10. 10
    jjschiller Says:

    Well with the Dodgers moving Eovaldi in the deal, they are making room for Dempster in their rotation.

  11. 11
    sdp Says:

    Also, Cole Hamels is re-upping with the Phils. 6/$140MM…crazy.

  12. 12
    Smitty Says:

    Grienke just got a lot more expensive.

    I wonder if we could trade for Ozzie?

  13. 13
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    The Phils have 4 players making as much as the entire Braves roster.

  14. 14
    Bethany Says:

    @8 Wow, can’t agree there. I don’t think this trilogy is going to have nearly the lasting power as people seem to think it does (I don’t feel the Dark Knight or Batman Begins hold up after multiple viewings). The original Star Wars trilogy is the best trilogy in my opinion, if only because I felt Jackson really botched Return of the King.

    Yeah, we just lost any chance at being able to afford Greinke long term.

  15. 15
    sansho1 Says:

    2008 was the year of No Country For Old Men and There Will Be Blood. I liked TDK a lot, but let’s not get carried away here.

  16. 16
    Smitty Says:

    Pluse, with Hammels off the market, the asking price for Greinke will go up.

    I think we are looking at Liriano at this point.

  17. 17
    Marc Schneider Says:

    No Country for Old Men still gives me the shivers just thinking about it.

    The Braves have lost any leverage they might have had by making it known they were going after a pitcher come hell or high water. If they were going to overpay for Dempster, they are going to have to overpay for anyone else now.

  18. 18
    csg Says:

    Hanley for a couple of scrubs…unreal

  19. 19
    Stu Says:

    Eovaldi isn’t a scrub.

    Good thing the Marlins got their new stadium.

  20. 20
    Remy Says:

    Will Hanley replace Gordon at short?

  21. 21
    Bethany Says:

    For what it’s worth, I still think Greinke is worth going after for the last two months, but Wren would never do it.

  22. 22
    Stu Says:

    Stu’s worthless order of preference:

    1. James Shields
    2. Josh Johnson
    3. Zack Greinke

  23. 23
    Bethany Says:

    Mmmmm, James Shields would be nice.

  24. 24
    jjschiller Says:

    Wren says Dempster deal is off.

  25. 25
    csg Says:

    Good, now get Shields

  26. 26
    Marc Schneider Says:

    Where did he say that?

  27. 27
    Smitty Says:

    If Josh Johnson is healthy…

  28. 28
    csg Says:

    #26 –

  29. 29
    Adam R Says:

    Everybody and their mother knows we want/need frontline SP without Wren doing a thing. And they also know that we’ve got nothing to trade for premium pitching but what we’re apparently offering…the promise of premium pitching next year or the year after that.

    I still say Dempster did us a favor, we should try to win now, and go get any of the three Stu listed @22. We have the offense. Let’s cash in and get the pitching we need to win it this year.

  30. 30
    sansho1 Says:

    I’d be higher on Johnson than Shields, but that I’d probably have to abandon Braves Journal beginning in 2013 if Delgado is included in the deal….

  31. 31
    Bethany Says:

    We are going to slip into a period of suck unless our prospects pan out, so we might as well go for broke while we have our best offensive pieces in play.

  32. 32
    Stu Says:

    Yeah, Johnson’s a better pitcher than Shields, but Shields is (a) healthier, (b) under contract for a year longer, and (c) not on a team we’ll have to face with whatever prospects we give up in the deal.

    Shields is very good and pitches a ton of innings. And he’s signed through 2014. He’d be an awesome acquisition, although I know he won’t come cheaply.

  33. 33
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I’m in line to go home today, though I will still need nursing care. Sorry for lurking, but I’m still getting used to this keyboard and have packed up my laptop.

  34. 34
    Adam R Says:

    @31, I typed up a whole big thing, but you said it all right there. We may slip into a period of suck REGARDLESS of whether our prospects pan out because we’re going to lose some key offensive pieces and we can’t afford to replace them all.

  35. 35
    Remy Says:

    Lurk all you want, Mac. We need to know you’re out there.

    Glad you’re feeling better.

  36. 36
    csg Says:

    Rumor is Texas will offer Mike Olt for Josh Johnson. If so, he’ll end up in Texas.

  37. 37
    csg Says:

    Shields would probably improve getting out of that division also.

  38. 38
    Stu Says:

    The good thing about the Dempster fiasco is that I am now fully prepared to lose at least one of our top pitching prospects. And I’ll now be relieved that it’s not to acquire two months of Ryan Dempster.

  39. 39
    csg Says:

    Lester could be available also.

  40. 40
    Seat Painter Says:

    Johnson-Hudson-Hanson-Sheets-Minor would look like a darn good rotation. But, I bet it would take Delgado and teheran to get it done, and I hope Wren doesn’t pay that.

  41. 41
    Stu Says:

    Shields has made 204 starts in his MLB career, dating back to 2006, and he’s averaged 6 2/3 innings per start.


  42. 42
    jjschiller Says:

    I never bought the whole “facing our own prospects for years” thing. They’re going to get SOMEBODY’S prospects. You want to face Delgado 4 times a year, or Mike Olt 18 times?

  43. 43
    Marc Schneider Says:

    Lester is pitching horribly. Why would you want him?

  44. 44
    Mike N. Says:

    Would it take Delgado and Teheran? According to most people they gave up Hanley for nothing, so you never know with the Marlins.

    I thought TDKR was good. Probably the “worst” of the three, but Begins and Dark Knight are such great movies that being the worst doesn’t necessarily say much. It was a somewhat flawed but great close to the trilogy, I believe.

  45. 45
    jjschiller Says:

    Lester would make tons of sense as a buy-low, but zero as a deadline game-changer.

  46. 46
    Dan Says:

    Wanting Lester is grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side syndrome.

    Lester is pitching much worse than Delgado.

  47. 47
    Bethany Says:

    @45 I agree. If Boston is looking to dump him, he could be a good low cost acquisition.

  48. 48
    Coop Says:

    Welcome back, Mac.

    Lord give me patience, right now! and two ace-quality pitchers, a strong righthanded bench bat, and a dependable bullpen arm, please.

  49. 49
    csg Says:

    If you like xFIP

    Lester 3.80
    Dempster 3.74

    Low risk – high reward and may cost less.

  50. 50
    jjschiller Says:

    So if Lester stops giving up homers, and Dempster starts, then they’ll be the same pitcher.

  51. 51
    Smitty Says:

    I wouldn’t mind Lester, but it would have to come with another pitcher.

    I’m with Stu. Let’s get Shields. He is a guy that goes deep in games. If we can get a lead or be close in the 7th, I like our chacnes with the back end of our pen.

    Shields + RH bench bat + a reliever= a tough team to beat.

  52. 52
    Smitty Says:

    I also bet the Phillies shop Cliff Lee.

  53. 53
    ububba Says:

    Hanley Ramirez became a very expensive league-average SS in a short 2 years. Maybe Mattingly can light a fire under his ass.

  54. 54
    krussell Says:

    I can’t get my head around a pitching evaluation method that ignores homers allowed.

  55. 55
    Parish Says:

    I cast my vote for Johnson. I wouldn’t even mind Delgado in that deal if we can re-up him at $20M per or less.

    14 – I am curious as to how Jackson “really botched Return of the King.”

  56. 56
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Extending Johnson for anything close to 20 million is courting catastrophe. The guy is good when he is healthy but for that much money you can’t risk a guys spending half the time on the DL.

  57. 57
    Dan Says:

    …he could be a good low cost acquisition.

    Low cost? Lester is due $11,625,000 in 2013. For the current Liberty Media cheapskate Braves, that’s a huge amount. The Braves are going to have a lot of money to play with this offseason, who wants to blow a significant chunk of it on 5.46 ERA Lester?

  58. 58
    csg Says:

    Lesters been a 200IP/200K pitcher the last 3 years. He may just be ready to move on from Boston. Not saying he’s my first choice by any means.

  59. 59
    csg Says:

    #57 – Nothing compared to Greinke’s cost.

  60. 60
    ububba Says:

    On the durability scale, Josh Johnson makes Ben Sheets look like Tom Seaver.

  61. 61
    Smitty Says:

    When Cole Hammels signed this morning the cost of Greinke in both prospects and long term $$$ went up big time.

  62. 62
    csg Says:

    The Braves are going to have a lot of money to play with this offseason, who wants to blow a significant chunk of it on 5.46 ERA Lester?

    Lester ERA last 4

    Shields ERA last 4

  63. 63
    Bethany Says:

    @55 I can’t think of a single thread in that movie I thought he handled well. I didn’t like the way he paced the battles, everyone is too split up, I don’t like the multiple endings… bleh. It’s my favorite of the books, so that’s probably why I judge that film more harshly.

  64. 64
    jjschiller Says:

    I have to imagine any non-rental means Hanson is on the move in the off season. At the very least, it means he’s allowed to walk when FA eligible. And Jurrjens is obviously getting non-tendered.

    Any pitcher we sign to an extension has to be getting money earmarked for Jurrjens/Hanson.

    24 mill is a problem. 16-17, I think is money they planned to spend anyway.

  65. 65
    Stu Says:

    62—Shields costs $21 million and Lester costs $24.625 million through 2014. For what it’s worth.

  66. 66
    csg Says:

    Right Ill take either though

  67. 67
    Stu Says:

    65—And that doesn’t account for the extra ~$1.5 million Lester is owed over Shields over the rest of 2012.

  68. 68
    Bethany Says:

    I think people are only suggesting Lester if Boston is aching to move him (which I think they are) and he can be had for lesser parts. He would be a supplemental move and it’d have to be the right deal. Unlikely that it could work out, but it’s worth looking into.

  69. 69
    jjschiller Says:

    If you’re trying to win the world series this year, I have to think you want a guy who’s performing well right now, not a guy who’s down, but you think will turn it around.

    That’s why I was in favor of Dempster.

    If you’re trying to build for the future

  70. 70
    Adam M Says:

    I’d be happy with either Lester or Shields. Got to get a guy whom you control for more than this season.

  71. 71
    jjschiller Says:

    Stupid phone… If you’re trying to build for the future, Lester or Shields are fine choices, if you extend them. And hey, maybe they’ll figure it out THIS year.

    If you want to win the world series this year, next year, and the year after that, pay for Greinke and extend him.

  72. 72
    Bethany Says:

    I think you can also take into account that Lester is playing in an absolutely toxic atmosphere in Boston. Half of their team has checked out and Valentine is a joke.

  73. 73
    Dan Says:

    Would rather the Braves spend money signing Greinke or re-signing Bourn than blowing their wad on a ‘maybe’ in Lester.

  74. 74
    Bethany Says:

    @73 I don’t think anyone is saying Lester is “the guy”. He’s “a guy”.

  75. 75
    Stu Says:

    Shields is not having a bad year. Trading for him would be trying to win now. And you’d get to have him, and all those above-average innings, for the next two years, too, and not at $20M per year.

  76. 76
    jjschiller Says:

    I know he’s in the AL East, but he’s got a 4.40 ERA, and its been on a steady incline since the beginning of May.

  77. 77
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    For what it’s worth Buster Olney just announced that the Cubs are going to keep Dempster, make a qualifying offer and take the supplementary pick. The Dodgers wouldn’t even give up the value of a supplementary pick! Wren should come back and offer Spruill and Terdoslavich. Tell him the offer is good right up to the deadline if Dempster is willing to reconsider.

  78. 78
    Bethany Says:

    @77 I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cubs come crawling back and try to get something. It could get interesting.

  79. 79
    Stu Says:

    Yeah, as with Dempster, I don’t think you can just look at 2012 ERA to make your evaluation.

  80. 80
    jjschiller Says:

    But don’t get me wrong, I’d take him. I’ve got no problem with the middle-road, blended-approach. And I think both Shields and Lester are that.

    I think that’s the kind of move the Braves will make, and I think its plenty smart.

    But i think its fair to characterize a Shields acquisition as “Better now, and better later” rather than “All in now.”

  81. 81
    Stu Says:


    Maybe they’ll throw in Zobrist and Rodney!

    And Price!

  82. 82
    Dan Says:

    Pull the offer. Since the draft pick is better than what the Dodgers are offering, maybe Dumpster will have to stay with the Cubs for two more months. A fitting end for him.

  83. 83
    Parish Says:

    Can we agree that this confirms Delgado was a gross overpay for Dempster?

  84. 84
    Adam R Says:

    How could anyone disagree?

  85. 85
    Jeremy Says:

    What I find hilarious is that, according to Peanut, teams started calling Wren when they saw he was offering Delgado for Dempster.

  86. 86
    Parish Says:

    Bethany – what threads were so poor?

    I thought the Shelob sequence was excellent as most of the Gollum content up to that point.

    FWIW, upon reflection Return was probably my least favorite of the three. Fellowship was the best.

  87. 87
    krussell Says:

    Whether or not it would be overpaying pretty much depends on the ability to sign our target to a multi-year deal. Delgado for a two-month rental seems like a definite overpay, but I gotta think that we’d only do a deal if we thought we’d get Dempster (or whoever) for say 3 years or something.

    On an unrelated note, I just looked at Teheran’s last 10 starts in AAA…my gosh he’s been awful.

  88. 88
    Bethany Says:

    @87 Yeah, but Dempster would have been expensive a big risk to sign because he’s a strikeout pitcher who is aging.

    @86 I’m not going to break it down. I don’t like the film, it’s my opinion, and that’s all there is to it.

  89. 89
    Stu Says:

    Time to trade him for Shields, Zobrist, Rodney, and Price. And Baldelli.

  90. 90
    jjschiller Says:


    Ryan Dempster since returning to starting in 2008:

    ERA+ 117
    WHIP 1.291
    H/9 8.3
    HR/9 0.9
    BB/9 3.3
    K/9 8.1
    K/BB 2.49

    James Shields since 2007 (leaving out his rookie year, as it was a partial season.)

    ERA+ 105
    WHIP 1.235
    H/9 9.0
    HR/9 1.2
    BB/9 2.1
    K/9 7.6
    K/BB 370

    Dempster walks more, but strikes out more, gives up fewer hits, gives up fewer homeruns, and thus gives up fewer runs.

    Sure, Delgado for Dempster straight up was an overpay. But we don’t know that that was the deal, since nothing was ever made official. Keith Law said “Delgado is in the deal,” and everyone’s head exploded, and we’re just going with the narrative that’s the most fun. But many were reporting Delgado +1, which, giving Wren the benefit of the doubt (which I feel he’s earned, with some good, creative moves) I’d have to say we were getting Reed Johnson on Shawn Camp back, probably by underpaying for them, in order to facilitate the Cubs acquiring Delgado. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable assumption.

    But Shields will cost a lot more, for virtually the same performance. Shields is younger and extendable, Dempster you don’t want to extend. But Dempster has been outrageous THIS year, while Shields has just been Shields.

    I just don’t see a reason to hate one acquisition and love the other.

  91. 91
    Stu Says:

    Shields’ K-rate has been trending upward, whereas Dempster’s has not. Shields is also not just “extendable” — he’s under contract in 2013 and ’14 for a total of $21M. Shields also averages almost seven innings per start!

    And he’s also teammates with Zobrist, Rodney, and Price.

  92. 92
    ryan c Says:

    I would rather Medlen go to the rotation and go after 2 stud relievers than any other current known option. Greinke would severely strap our cash for years to come, Dempster is a stupid overpay, and no other known option is an upgrade over Medlen. See what the Rockies would take for Belisle and Betancourt, and find a RH hitting outfielder. If that doesn’t get us into the wild card, so be it.

  93. 93
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Those reports of Delgado+ made it pretty clear that it was Braves giving up the +, not the Cubs. The only thing the Cubs agreed to kick in was salary relief.

  94. 94
    Parish Says:

    88 – Was not trying to make this a debate. Was just curious. Sorry to offend.

  95. 95
    JP Says:

    Let’s say the Braves do acquire a “top of the rotation” guy today. Press confrence is held, some panic and some rejoice, etc. Then, on the day of the deadline, Theo calls up (with Dempster’s approval) and asks for something much lower in value than Randall Delgado, something like the Spruill/Joey Terds package mentioned in 77…if you’re Frank Wren do you take it? Is the value of Dempster any greater than Mike Minor, whom he would displace from the rotation? Even though Mike Minor would pout for days, I think it may be worth it. I don’t think the Braves can trust Jurrjens with any more starts down the stretch, and if giving up nondescript prospects and pissing Mike Minor off is what it costs to make that situation less likely, I think it’s worth it. Plus, I think Wren should squeeze the Cubs for Reed Johnson in any Dempster deal.

    Sorry for the wishcasting ramble from someone who reads daily but almost never posts!

  96. 96
    krussell Says:

    @88, agree that it’d be a risk, but keeping Delgado is also a risk. I think the way to build a consistently winning team is to trade unproven players for proven when possible. Of course there’s always exceptions…and it’s not arguable that Dempster is older than you’d like when talking about a multi-year extension.

    But we’ve been drinking our own koolaid with the young pitching prospects, to the point where any deal that involves them is going to cause people to scream an whine about Texiera-deal-redux. The reality is that it’s unlikely that any of them will have a career equal to or better than Dempster’s. That’s just the way “prospects” work.

  97. 97
    Parish Says:

    87 – I am not sure extending Dempster age 36 and beyond makes it any sweeter to give up Delgado’s age 23 – 27 seasons.

    I posted details on Teheran’s start last night at the end of the last thread. I think the stuff is still there (CB is better), but his approach needs to be tweaked.

  98. 98
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Watching Hanson do his thing it is pretty clear that Delgado is our #3 starter already.

  99. 99
    jjschiller Says:

    @93 – I don’t think you understood me.

    Yes. The reports said that it was US throwing in the plus. The reports said Delgado +1 to Cubs.

    But all that tells me is that the leak came from our side.

    If it’s universally agreed, by fans here and by pundits on Twitter, that 5 years of Delgado for 2 months of Dempster was a huge overpay, why would Wren be the only one who didn’t get it?

    And why would Wren have to throw in MORE?

    Probably because The Cubs and Braves agreed that Delgado for Dempster didn’t work, but the Cubs wanted Delgado or no deal. So the deal was expanded, and the Cubs addition was not leaked.

  100. 100
    Brian J. Says:

    If I understand this thread correctly, it would be a mistake to trade Gollum and Delgado to Gotham City for Greinke or Laster, because they’re botches who cost too much. True?

    And Hanson needs to remember that league rules don’t require him to start every inning with a runner on second.

  101. 101
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    That way once they steal third he doesn’t have to worry about the running game.

  102. 102
    Brian J. Says:

    101- Not necessarily; you remember that play the Padres pulled off in LA a couple of weeks ago, right?

    Another magic act by Hanson. Don’t count on those.

    And I meant Lester in #100.

  103. 103
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    He seemed to find his control at least. He could retire 12 straight.

  104. 104
    Mike N. Says:

    Tommy Hanson can’t do anything when he’s off the mound.

  105. 105
    krussell Says:

    This place is the best during Hanson starts.

  106. 106
    jjschiller Says:

    I just hate Tommy Hanson.

    Maybe he should be a reliever.

  107. 107
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    What exactly happens during bunting practice I wonder.

  108. 108
    jjschiller Says:


  109. 109
    mravery Says:

    I’m not convinced the Braves go for a front-line pitcher at this point. And if they do, I’m not convinced it will hamstring us going forward. Say they get Grienke for $20M per. Half of that is Lowe, and eventually Hudson will come off the books, so that’s the other half. Next year could be tough, but no JJ means a $5.5M savings. The real question is how you fill two holes in the OF, though maybe you can resign Bourne with his money from this year plus Chipper’s. Heck, he probably won’t even cost that much.

  110. 110
    Dan Says:

    And Hanson needs to remember that league rules don’t require him to start every inning with a runner on second.

    Still hasn’t gotten the memo.

  111. 111
    jjschiller Says:

    I like that Francisco stood tall and came toward Reyes, didn’t give him a chance to slide.

  112. 112
    Putter Says:

    Hanson is just as sharp as normal….we need to get some runs because he won’t keep pulling rabbits out of his hat

  113. 113
    krussell Says:

    I don’t think this particular version of our lineup is optimal for getting runs.

  114. 114
    Brian J. Says:

    Tommy’s control missed the plane to Miami. 32 balls to 24 strikes?!?

  115. 115
    jjschiller Says:

    I hate Tommy Hanson and I hope the team plane leaves without him.

  116. 116
    Putter Says:

    5 stolen bases in 2 1/3 innings? Maybe the clown should stop walking teams doubles and triples or learn how to hold runners better

  117. 117
    jjschiller Says:

    What made anybody believe Tommy Hanson was a baseball player?

  118. 118
    Dan Says:

    Boo Hanson.

    Hooray beer!

  119. 119
    Brian J. Says:

    Three doubles, four walks, five stolen bases and only one run… being a Marlins fan so far today must be almost as frustrating as being a Braves fan.

  120. 120
    Adam M Says:

    How rare is it for two under-26 pitchers on the same team to suffer such a decline in skill sets?

  121. 121
    Stu Says:

    117—His 3.00 ERA in this game…


  122. 122
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    We can’t let this much luck go to waste.

  123. 123
    Putter Says:

    With 65 pitches thru 3 innings, the bullpen is going to get worked a ton today. Just bring Medlen in now for his 3 innings

  124. 124
    bfan Says:

    Wow. An inning with 3 walks; 2 SB; and a double, and they scored 1 run. That has to hurt.

    Hanson’s and the team’s failure to address the inability to hold runners (weren’t they like 25 for 26, last year, off of Hanson?), is a disgrace. That isn’t talent; it is effort and practice, on technique. Someone is being lazy (Hanson) and someone is letting him get away with that (the organization). Look at how good Shields is at pick-offs and holding runners; that isn’t talent-it is will and technique.

  125. 125
    Bethany Says:

    I was expecting us to be down 4 after reading the comments.

  126. 126
    Adam R Says:

    I still think Hanson’s hurt.

    Coming into this game, in 116 IP he gave up 13 SBs. Which is — was — a huge improvement over last year. 30 SB in 130 IP.

  127. 127
    krussell Says:

    Hanson starts are just pure gold.

  128. 128
    Bethany Says:

    Great job Freddie and Jason!

  129. 129
    Brian J. Says:

    Hanson’s starts have become more like pyrite lately. But that’s still better than JJ or Minor.

  130. 130
    JoeyT Says:

    I’m with Bethany. I thought I was going to see a blowout the way the comments are, not a 1-1 tie.

  131. 131
    Bethany Says:


  132. 132
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:


  133. 133
    Smitty Says:

    Behold the power of cheese!

  134. 134
    Brian J. Says:

    JUAN! Hey, a one-tool player is still fine if he uses that tool a lot.

  135. 135
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    If Janish gets on, does Fredi pinch hit for Hanson? (No, but he should).

  136. 136
    Smitty Says:

    @125 and 132

    That is how it is around here. If we aint up 13, we suck.

    You fail most of the time in this game.

  137. 137
    Stu Says:

    Constanza, our Opening-Day CF, next year.

  138. 138
    Putter Says:

    Wow… Francisco earning a paycheck today!

  139. 139
    Putter Says:

    @128 if we can get some production out of Michael Myers and Leatherface today we may pull out a win

  140. 140
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    No sitting on your hands Fredi.

  141. 141
    Mark Grogan Says:

    JJ Hoo?

  142. 142
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    He only missed by four feet with that one.

  143. 143
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Oh my god. Anybody up in the pen?

  144. 144
    Bethany Says:

    6 stolen bases? Wow.

  145. 145
    Adam R Says:

    This is insane.

  146. 146
    Tom Says:

    Love Top 3:

    1. Craig Kimbrel
    2. Martin Prado
    3. Frank Wren

    Hate Top 3:
    1. Liberty Media
    2. Fredi Gonzalez
    3. Jair Jurrjens

  147. 147
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    It could be that Hanson can actually strike people out at will, and he is simply a great artisan who looks at pitching as the theater of the absurd.

  148. 148
    Adam R Says:

    Four innings, five walks, six strikeouts, seven stolen bases. He has to be trolling us.

  149. 149
    Nick Says:

    Wow! It doesn’t happen very often, but when Francisco connects, the U.S. Geological Survey has to officially mark the spot where he’s standing as an epicenter.

  150. 150
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    And this may well be one of his masterpieces.

  151. 151
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    If he had failed to advance Janish I was ready to pronounce him a genius.

  152. 152
    Putter Says:

    Pay the man!

  153. 153
    Bethany Says:

    Bourn needs all the money.

  154. 154
    Jay W. Says:

    You’re all thinking it.

  155. 155
    Mark Grogan Says:

    Now we’ll see if Tommy Hanson knows how to win.

  156. 156
    desert Says:

    Tommy Hanson knows how to win.

    Trivia time.


    A player in the NL, entering today, had this slash line. Who is this player?

  157. 157
    sansho1 Says:

    This is one weird-ass game so far.

    Also, I’ve said this before, but it cracks me up how tired Bourn always looks after he runs. He even looks ready to collapse after a home run!

  158. 158
    bfan Says:

    “Coming into this game, in 116 IP he gave up 13 SBs. Which is — was — a huge improvement over last year. 30 SB in 130 IP.”

    He is going to give up his 17 SB improvement, today.

  159. 159
    sdp Says:

    Juan Francisco is going to take a pitch to the back one of these days.

  160. 160
    bfan Says:

    “A player in the NL, entering today, had this slash line. Who is this player?”

    Stephen Strasburg?

  161. 161
    Stu Says:

    147—I’m guffawing in my office.

  162. 162
    Tomas Says:

    So, which team is going to make the most nutty offer to Bourn that the Braves have no prayer of matching? I’m going to guess Detroit.

  163. 163
    MikeM Says:

    Raise your hand if you thought Bourn had a good shot to out-homer Prado this year.

  164. 164
    Bethany Says:

    @156 Melky?

  165. 165
    desert Says:


    Indeed. With those two consecutive number 1 picks, the Nationals grabbed arguably the two best players ever drafted in MLB history. Lucky.

  166. 166
    Adam R Says:

    I looked at Melky’s slash, saw that it didn’t match, and still threw up a little in my mouth.

  167. 167
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Raise your hand if you were rooting for Solano to steal second!!!

  168. 168
    Stu Says:

    With those two consecutive number 1 picks, the Nationals grabbed arguably the two best players ever drafted in MLB history.

    Somebody needs a big ol’ gulp of Settledown Juice.

  169. 169
    desert Says:


    Washington. Or LA. Dave Cameron said today that a reasonable estimate for their payroll ceiling is around $200 million.

  170. 170
    bfan Says:

    “So, which team is going to make the most nutty offer to Bourn that the Braves have no prayer of matching? I’m going to guess Detroit.”

    Detroit has ex-georgia tech basketball signee Austin Jackson in center. It will make me puke if we cannot sign Bourne; he does so much for this team.

  171. 171
    Stu Says:

    How do the Braves have a four-run lead in this game?

  172. 172
    desert Says:


    I should probably replace ‘best’ with ‘most talented’, but I don’t understand how that statement is unreasonable.

  173. 173
    Bethany Says:

    My god, Tommy.

  174. 174
    Adam R Says:

    Is it wrong that I want today’s game to be a sign from Tommy? That he’s decided it’s better to go back being the pitcher he was last year, striking out lots of guys with his old delivery and not caring a whit about the running game, until his shoulder finally gives out?

    Better to burn out than to fade away, Tommy!

  175. 175
    sansho1 Says:

    I would seriously consider pulling Tommy Hanson with two outs in the fifth just out of spite.

  176. 176
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Double steal?

  177. 177
    Adam R Says:

    I think, at this point, this is Fredi’s fault.

    Also, maybe Tommy’s high?

  178. 178
    bfan Says:

    well, one reason we are still winning is that SB’s are terribly over-valued. Look at the 2nd inning; the out made by Reyes at 3rd, stealing (obviously 1 run, plus a potential huge inning), vs. the 2 stolen bases, which meant nothing, because the next guy walked.

    However, 2 HRs always equal at least 2 runs.

  179. 179
    Bethany Says:


  180. 180
    sdp Says:

    So why did the Marlins make their CF depth 418 feet?

  181. 181
    RobBroad4th Says:

    I hate Hanson starts, win or lose.

  182. 182
    Stu Says:

    How do the Braves still have a four-run lead in this game?

  183. 183
    RobBroad4th Says:

    PS: In the post game show, Cliff Floyd blamed the heat and humidity for Buerhle’s problems. Think about it for a second.

  184. 184
    Tomas Says:

    170 — I hadn’t actually paid much attention to Austin Jackson’s stats this season, I just remembered he wasn’t all that impressive last year. So they are probably not in the picture as you rightly imply.

    Maybe the White Sox… or the Giants just to really piss me off.

  185. 185
    ububba Says:

    Freaky–7 BBs, 7 SBs, 7 Ks, all in 5 IP.

  186. 186
    desert Says:


    In a closed, air conditioned stadium where the temperature is about 70 degrees.

    Makes complete sense.

  187. 187
    Coop Says:

    I’ve tried to not say this today, but Tommy is killing me. Can we include him in a trade for a couple of starters, please? I hate watching him pitch.

  188. 188
    Bethany Says:

    Way to go, Juan!

  189. 189
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Whats faster: Brian McCann running the bases or Hanson’s delivery to the plate?

  190. 190
    Parish Says:

    Stu – we no longer have a 4-run lead.

  191. 191
    PeteOrr Says:

    Don Sutton sounds like he’s in a prozac stupor. His call of McCann’s slide into home was given in the same voice he reads the lineups with. I have no idea if it was a close play, a good slide, or a bad call. I love Jim Powell as the play-by-play guy, but Sutton just doesn’t communicate as much as I want to know.

  192. 192
    Adam R Says:

    This has been my favorite Tommy Hanson start ever. The results are good (so far…maybe there’s more!), people are extra crabby on here, and I am suitably entertained.

  193. 193
    Stu Says:

    Totally agree, Pete. Don’s always been awful at PBP.

  194. 194
    Parish Says:

    7 walks, 7 stolen bases and 7 strikeouts.

    There is a beautiful symmetry here.

  195. 195
    Brian J. Says:

    So long, Tommy. Hopesfully now our ulcers will subside.

  196. 196
    desert Says:

    That stat line is usually accompanied by 7 ER.

  197. 197
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Tommy was brilliant entertainment today. I hate to say it but I am actually looking forward to watching his start.

  198. 198
    Tomas Says:

    I don’t disagree that Don isn’t the best play-by-play guy around, but just internally comparing him to Chip makes it instantly a lot more bearable for me.

  199. 199
    ububba Says:

    Don’s rather lacking in that department, yes; but he still has a ways to go before he becomes John Sterling, who continues to work in an alternate universe.

    As bad as Hanson was today, at least he got some K’s in big spots. That throw from Janish helped, too.

    FWIW, Mets are no help again today.

  200. 200
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    *next* start

  201. 201
    bfan Says:

    Meanwhile, the Cubs were kind enough to pull Dempster after 6 innings, to keep him rested for us, in case he decides it doesn’t suck to live in Atlanta.

  202. 202
    desert Says:

    Apparently Dempster threw a couple of bats and some Gatorade while exiting his start.

  203. 203
    Parish Says:

    7 is also the over/under for the number of posters on Bravesjournal that are about to suggest Medlen should be in the starting rotation.

  204. 204
    Brian J. Says:

    202- Because he knew he could have had the run support we provided Tommy?

  205. 205
    Adam R Says:

    Don’t look now, but the Phillies are starting to heat up.

    Medlen must be wondering what the hell he has to do to be allowed to start a game.

  206. 206
    Adam R Says:

    #1 of 7!

  207. 207
    Brian J. Says:

    203- I don’t know that “about to suggest” is the term I’d use given how long people have been calling for it here.

  208. 208
    desert Says:

    Medlen definitely belongs in the rotation in its current state.

    After watching Juan’s reaction to his HR, I think he would be the perfect Melky V 2.0. He just needs to drop 20 pounds.

    ‘I’m from Florida’- kid they’re interviewing on TV.

    No Duh.

  209. 209
    PeteOrr Says:

    @198 – he followed the McCann slide with something like the following call of Bourn’s steal of 2nd :

    “Bourn’s running (pause) The throw is right…on… (long pause)…the money, actually it’s a little high, and Bourn is in there with the steal.”

    That is a Chip Caray special, and there wasn’t even any reason to rush it. He just started with an inaccurate call and kept going with it before correcting himself.

  210. 210
    c. shorter Says:

    I’d put Medlen in the rotation.

  211. 211
    RobBroad4th Says:

    The Marlins announcers talked about the grass that whole half inning. We’re not the only team with bad announcers.

  212. 212
    sansho1 Says:


    Don does these weird run-on sentences where between pitches he’ll begin an anecdote, then when the pitch interrupts him he’ll twist whatever he was saying into a tortured homespun aphorism to describe the play, without ever stopping to take a breath.

    “So after school we would head down to one of the saltwater lakes near Mobile Bay and do a little noodling, which is what you call fishing for catfish with your hands and Heyward does a little handfishing and will noodle his way back to the dugout after a routine grounder to second base….” or something like that. This will now drive you as crazy as it does me.

  213. 213
    Adam R Says:

    If you’re not a Marlins fan — and maybe even if you are — Rich Waltz is completely insufferable.

  214. 214
    ububba Says:

    If a radio announcer just accurately describes the action (like the late Met announcer Bob Murphy), I can put up with almost anything else.

    If they’re good at that and they have a winning personality/genuine sense of humor (like the Mets’ Howie Rose), that a huge bonus and a bit or a rarity anymore.

    Powell at PBP & Don doing color is just fine, but we’re still a long way from Skip.

  215. 215
    Stu Says:

    I really, really like Powell at PBP.

  216. 216
    ububba Says:


  217. 217
    Stu Says:

    That Heyward is so unexciting.

  218. 218
    krussell Says:

    Another boring 3-hit 1-run allowed performance by Braves Journal’s leastest favoritest pitcher evar! And he only struck out 7. Plus he sucked at bunting and also allowed 42 stolen bases. Textbook Hanson start. I wish this place was as entertaining during non-Hanson games.

  219. 219
    Nick Says:

    Chip is a significantly better play-by-play guy than Don. There, I said it.

  220. 220
    Nick Says:

    Also, I don’t know if I’m the only one who hadn’t figured this out yet, but if you grow tired of the ridiculous Scout feature on Gameday, you can turn it off by clicking on the sprocket-looking thing in the upper-right corner, just below the out-of-town scoreboard.

  221. 221
    desert Says:


    ‘Least favorite’ is a little strong. You should have seen the threads for Jo-Jo Reyes’s starts.

  222. 222
    Nick Says:

    I also find it amusing how people are really up in arms about getting rid of Delgado, but 60 percent of the people on here would give up Hanson for just about any damn thing.

  223. 223
    jjschiller Says:

    @222 – Hanson is getting paid handsomely for this, Delgado is not.

  224. 224
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    222- Is it also an amusing coincidence that pretty much no GM in baseball would take Hanson for just about any damn thing?

  225. 225
    PaulV Says:

    Is Medlin being stretched out today?

  226. 226
    jjschiller Says:

    Actually, I reckon he’s not. I thought he had arb this offseason

  227. 227
    PeteOrr Says:

    @223 – Hanson makes about $55,000 more this season than Delgado does. Hanson’s still a wage slave.

  228. 228
    PeteOrr Says:

    @226 – Yeah, that.

  229. 229
    Adam R Says:

    It’s not just Hanson’s proximity to arbitration. There’s also reason to think he’s just not going to be the same as he was.

    Not that I would give him away for nothing, even if he is pitching at close to replacement level.

  230. 230
    Brian J. Says:

    This is an encouraging return. Bringing O’Ventbrel back together can make up for some of the sins of our rotation.

  231. 231
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Venters looks better.

  232. 232
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    That could be huge.

  233. 233
    Adam R Says:


  234. 234
    Brian J. Says:

    4-3 against the Natsops and Anchovies. Not a bad little road trip.

  235. 235
    Brian J. Says:

    4-3 against the Natspos and Anchovies. Not a bad little road trip.

  236. 236
    Grst Says:

    Good velocity, good movement from Venters. Having old Johnny back for good would very nice.

  237. 237
    braves14 Says:

    I didn’t realize the game was this afternoon. But it was nice to check in and see the Braves won.

    What a bizarre line from Hanson.

  238. 238
    Dan Says:

    Don’t look now, but the Phillies are starting to heat up.

    This is as with the Mets in 2006; getting beat by a team so much you can’t accept when they’re down and out. The Phillies are ten under .500.

  239. 239
    Tomas Says:

    One of the MLB video clips from the game is titled “Hanson’s strong outing.”

    Yes, really.

  240. 240
    sdp Says:


    The last pitcher with a 7 K, 7 BB, and 7 SB line was Bob Feller.

    At the conclusion of the game, Chip Caray called Hanson’s performance, “historic.”

  241. 241
    Marc Schneider Says:

    Except that I bet that was in 9 innings, not five.

  242. 242
    PaulV Says:

    “hysterical historic”

  243. 243
    Adam R Says:

    @238, In fact, while I’m not afraid of the Phillies surpassing us this season, I think they’re in a position now to (continue to) play us tough and be spoilers.

  244. 244
    fm Says:

    Tweet from DOB:

    “#Braves Hanson on Medlen following w/ 3 near-perfect IP: “He made it look so easy. I’m sitting here like, ‘I suck. I’m NOT good right now.”

  245. 245
    PaulV Says:

    phils down 6-5 in bottom of tenth

  246. 246
    fm Says:

    Remember when Francisco Rodriguez used to be good? Yeah, I really miss those days now.

  247. 247
    csg Says:

    “All I said this morning – and I think I told you guys last night – I said that it’s highly unlikely that we make that deal,” he said. “We had certain parameters that expired yesterday. I’m not going to get into great detail on this, other than to say there were certain parameters for us that expired. And the Cubs were fully aware of it and understood.” – Frank Wren

    I like the sound of that.

  248. 248
    braves14 Says:

    Would you guys be open to including Teheran in a trade for Greinke? I think I would.

  249. 249
    Smitty Says:

    I think we should call Seatle and try to blow them away for King Felix. It won’t work, but wouldn’t it be fun if it did.

  250. 250
    csg Says:

    #248 – Teheran is still young, but I really dont see why he should be untouchable.

    #249 – Dont think we have enough to offer them.

  251. 251
    beege Says:

    Has Hanson said or done something other than not be a Cy Young caliber pitcher that makes everyone hate him so much? That quote @ 244 makes him seem pretty self-aware and likeable to me.

  252. 252
    DJ Says:

    @249 – Now we’re talking. From a pitching standpoint, what organizations could offer the equivalent of Teheran/Delgado for King Felix?

  253. 253
    Adam R Says:

    @251, Apparently, attempting a comeback that entails reworking your whole delivery after suffering a potentially career-derailing injury means you get labelled with “SoCal insouciance.”

    Or my favorite little meme from here, “He’s no John Smoltz.”

  254. 254
    jjschiller Says:

    If you are putting Teheran in to play, pitchers with better contract status/talent ratio than Greinke become available.

    So, absolutely not.

  255. 255
    sansho1 Says:

    I don’t try to read too much into his body language. But Hanson does every Small Thing poorly — he doesn’t hold runners well, can’t handle the bat whatsoever, and is a bad fielder generally for a pitcher. There are, I would guess, around three or four examples per start where he looks hopeless attempting any of these things. There are also the several times per start where he misses the catcher’s target by two feet or more. Put it all together with the increasing BB and HR rates (aka the Big Things), and it makes for a uniquely frustrating viewing experience.

  256. 256
    Dan Says:

    Fun fact: the Mets’ lead over the Phillies is now 2.5 games.

  257. 257
    beege Says:

    So he needs to win Cy Youngs and Gold Gloves. I guess he’s no Greg Maddux either.

  258. 258
    krussell Says:

    Actually Maddux was pretty notoriously easily to steal on as well.

  259. 259
    ububba Says:

    But an awesome fielder.

  260. 260
    sansho1 Says:


    Didn’t say that. I said he stands out as being noticeably bad at that stuff — and while the little things are just that, my fear is that they speak of someone who may lack an underlying baseline of athleticism that can impact the length and productivity of a career.

  261. 261
    RobBroad4th Says:

    @244, Love the quote.

  262. 262
    krussell Says:

    He has a partially torn rotator cuff and he’s pitching through it and trying to change his mechanics on the fly in order to maybe help relieve the stress on his shoulder. Go look at the first three seasons of his career and get back to me about how sucky he is. We should be so lucky to find 3 or 4 more guys that are equally sucky.

    He’s struggling because he’s hurt, he’s lost some velocity, and he’s tinkering with his delivery. It’s not because he doesn’t care, or isn’t trying, or isn’t athletic. C’mon people.

  263. 263
    kc Says:

    I think the point is that Hanson is still helping us to win despite all that. Should be hate Francisco more than Hanson for example? It all comes down to the fact that we expected more from Hanson. It’s like the Andruw and Heyward sencarios all over again.

  264. 264
    krussell Says:

    Fredi quote of the day:

    “They’ve got some guys that can run. That’s the way [Hanson] has been forever. We try to speed him up every once in a while. It concerns me a little bit, but I go back to what my people from SABR [Society for American Baseball Research] say, that stolen bases do not equal runs, and today it came true. But it’s not really a good feeling when guys are running all over the basepaths.”

  265. 265
    sansho1 Says:


    Well now, don’t lump me in with the people who say he doesn’t care or isn’t trying, because I find that as ridiculous as anybody. To expand on my original answer to the question of why do people here hate Hanson so much, I’ll say to the extent it’s true it’s for reasons both good and bad. Further, I don’t “hate” him, but I find him frustrating to watch for the reasons I tried to cite. Are you not finding him frustrating to watch?

  266. 266
    ububba Says:

    Back in the WC spot for the moment, Atlanta & Pittsburgh.

    And where do we play our last 3 regular-season games? Yep, Pittsburgh.

  267. 267
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    The fact that he can’t field, or hit, or even bunt has nothing to do with his injury. I like Tommy Hanson, and I think the only reason he is still as successful as he is can only be due to toughness, a fiercely competitive personality, and some pretty decent pitching smarts. But the funniest thing about these threads is when people start coming after the fact and acting as though Hanson pitched like Greg Maddux just because he went five innings and got the win.

    I suspect few of them actually watched the game. I mean, come on, that game was completely nuts. It might have been the most improbable pitching performance I’ve ever seen.

  268. 268
    krussell Says:

    @265, he’s no more frustrating to watch than any of our other pitchers. The frustration with Hanson is that his injury is going to make it tough for him to live up to the career path that his age 22/23/24 seasons were projecting. Rotator-cuff problems mean loss of control and loss of velocity. I don’t blame *him* for that though. His curve ball is still one of the best in baseball and that alone is enough for me. I just hope he doesn’t hurt himself any more.

  269. 269
    sansho1 Says:

    So I thought I’d put my own contention to the test. The theory is that pitchers who are particularly bad at non-pitching aspects of the game are likely to be less successful pitchers overall.

    I can’t come up with a good test regarding fielding, but I did look at all pitchers who 1) had at least 100 PAs as National League pitchers in 1973-2012 and 2) started in at least 40% of their career appearances, and arranged them by batting average.

    The worst 10 pitchers by batting average were Brian Moehler, Mark Clark, Rick Helling, Ben Sheets, Bill Grief, Mike Bielecki, Claudio Vargas, Doug Davis, Al Leiter, and Chris Holt. The sum of their career WAR is 132.3.

    The best 10 were Ken Brett, Allen Watson, Brandon Backe, Mike Hampton, Dontrelle Willis, Carlos Zambrano, Rick Rhoden, Dan Haren, Don Robinson, Tim Lollar. The sum of their career WAR is 148.6.

    OK, the difference there is probably solely attributable to their difference as hitters, so I’m not sure this says much. I will say that the good hitters, with Carlos Zambrano and Dan Haren still active, are likely to stretch out the lead over the bad hitters, with Sheets and Doug Davis still playing. But, not significant in any case.

  270. 270
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Another test might be to compare the WAR based on errors and fielding chances converted per innings pitched.

  271. 271
    sansho1 Says:

    I’d like to, but BB Ref doesn’t have sortable fielding stats.

  272. 272
    krussell Says:

    Fielding is irrelevant for pitchers. Anyone can field a two hopper right at them. The rest are probably better left to the SS/2B most of the time anyway.

    Bunting I’ll give’s not that hard, and it is frustrating to watch someone who’s terrible at it. Still, it’s so far down the list of what matters for a pitcher that I have a hard time getting worked up about it. Just tell him to close his eyes and swing.

  273. 273
    jjschiller Says:

    Were you around when Madrid was here? Fielding for a pitcher is irrelevant? I don’t even know what to say to that.

    Hopefully we’ll get to watch a season of Zack Greinke here. That kid is an athlete, and it helps him.

  274. 274
    jjschiller Says:

    Yes, Madrid. Thanks, Android.

    Obviously, I meant Maddux.

  275. 275
    beege Says:

    Sorry, I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth. I just think our players catch a lot of unwarranted grief around here when there are perfectly reasonable players to hate on other teams, like Melky and Cody Ross.

  276. 276
    beege Says:

    Although I was fine with hating Melky in a Brave’s uniform, too.

  277. 277
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:


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