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19 Oct

We shall see

FOXSports.com – MLB- Mazzone leaving Braves for O’s

Rosenthal often reports things as fact that are not done deals. Leo may, for example, have an offer from the Orioles which he’ll give the Braves a chance to match.

203 Responses to “We shall see”

  1. 1
    latnam Says:

    Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap Crap

    OK, well, we’ll see, but I’m not feeling very optimistic.

  2. 2
    nyb Says:

    I know I can’t be the only one eagerly awaiting Alex’s next post. Just use you Caps Lock Alex, it will save time…

  3. 3
    JoeyT Says:

    I am feeling sicker by the minute.

  4. 4
    Rufino Linares Says:

    Trying to see the positive side of this, if Leo reproduces his success with the Braves in Baltimore, it’ll be a nice control to demonstrate his true impact, and hopefully it’ll bolster his hall of fame case, assuming it even needs to be augmented.

    I’ll miss the rocking, though, if this is true.

  5. 5
    Bell Curve Says:

    Well…

    If it’s true, you just gotta wish him the best, right?

    This is way premature, but who would replace him in Atlanta?

  6. 6
    David Remy Says:

    I’m feeling a little weak-kneed right now. May be time to bring the paddles out again, I don’t know.

  7. 7
    Dix Says:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2194428

    not as bleak a picture as Fox painted

  8. 8
    delg Says:

    Joe Girardi accepts Marlins job.

    Not actually related to this discussion, but of the same genre… and someone might be interested.

  9. 9
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Short list: Bruce Dal Canton, Guy Hansen, Randy St. Claire, Don Gullett, Mike Maddux. Just my guess.

  10. 10
    David Remy Says:

    Isn’t St. Claire the one who makes a lot of trips to the mound? I don’t know if I could take that all season.

  11. 11
    nyb Says:

    Ray Miller is suddenly available. He’s done some good work, although he wasn’t much of a manager.

  12. 12
    Kirk Says:

    This strikes me as a bit premature. Let’s just see how it all plays out. I won’t be worried until I see a direct quote from either Leo, Orioles management, or Braves management.

  13. 13
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Miller’s only available because he’s sick. I doubt he’s a candidate… St. Claire makes all those trips because he has basically two starting pitchers.

    From what I can tell, the two top “young” pitching coaches in the majors are Maddux and Hershiser. I don’t think Orel would be available, though.

  14. 14
    rb from across the country Says:

    ####.

  15. 15
    Bell Curve Says:

    Bring back Knucksie!

  16. 16
    rb from across the country Says:

    I blame AOL.

  17. 17
    Alex R. Says:

    Fox Sports says Mazzone is joining the Orioles.

    ESPN says he’s only eliminated the Yankees and is considering both the Orioles and Braves.

    I won’t say anything horrible until it became a reality.

    BUT FUCK KEN ROSENTHAL FOR REPORTING SOMETHING THAT IS IN NO WAY A FACT YET. FUCK YOU, ROSENTHAL.

    happy, nyb?

  18. 18
    jenny Says:

    Ray Miller is having major aneurysm surgery soon and won’t be coaching next year. By “major,” I mean “has the potential to be fatal.”

    I hate to sound like a whiner, but I’ll go ahead, feel free to ignore as I vent…nobody ever takes the O’s seriously. I brought this possibility up, and even as it got stronger it was all Yankees this Yankees that all over the place. Well, the laughingstock O’s appear to have had the last laugh here! This sucks. I would be happy for my O’s but they are not going to contend as long as Angelos is the owner, so Mazzone will not make much difference. So I’m just upset.

  19. 19
    nyb Says:

    happy, nyb?

    It didn’t meet my expectations, but thanks for throwing me a bone. Nice job on waiting for confirmation. That’s pretty much why I’m not too upset yet.

  20. 20
    ububba Says:

    “High tensions at Bravesbeat today, as the regulars duke it out & wait for a definitive Mazzone announcement.”

    There’s not a lot to be cheery about today, I agree. I think this thread has become the Internet equivalent of going home & kicking the dog. Let’s play nice now…

  21. 21
    DANNY Says:

    WHOSE KIKING A DOGGEE? THETS MEEN. U SHUDENT KIK DOGGEES.

  22. 22
    Smitty Says:

    The Braves will match the offer, just chill.

  23. 23
    kc Says:

    This site needs some optimistic opinion.

    LEO WILL STAY WITH THE BRAVES!!!!

    I just think someone needs to say something like this to light things up.

  24. 24
    Gregsons Says:

    Bryan Price?

  25. 25
    Alex R. Says:

    Jenny,

    I really do adore you and always try & pay you compliments but I was actually cringing at the thought of you coming in here and ‘mentioning’ you’re ‘dual’ love of the Oreos. If there’s a 24 hour period I would rather not see any OREO LOVE it’s this one considering the high stakes Mazzone situation.

    And for the record, though I like you, I strongly strongly dislike the Oreos as I woiuld anything ever run by Peter f-ng Angelos.

    And why the f would Mazzone go there? because he’s friends with perlozzo? Good luck working for Angelos Mazzone if you choose that sh–. Plus, I loved the Tv show ‘Homicide’, one of the best shows EVER on TV, but the city of Baltimore (which I drive into once a week for client meetings) kind of sucks ass…very very dirty and run down.

    Again, please don’t take any of this personally Jenny. As a Northern Virginia resident, I feel infinitely qualified to rip on Ballmore.

  26. 26
    JC Says:

    Baltimore, all the crime of DC without the cool shit.

  27. 27
    Mac Thomason Says:

    And an aquarium.

  28. 28
    Kirk Says:

    This story from the AJC website has much more detail than the others being carried on ESPN or Fox. They make it sound pretty bleak:
    http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/1005/20mazzone.html

  29. 29
    fjensen Says:

    I wonder who the minor league in return the Braves are demanding?

  30. 30
    joshq Says:

    I’m all about waiting to see this news from a ‘reliable’ source. NOT KEN ROSENTHAL…
    He is in no way on the Rational Train!!!

    If Leo leaves because he wants a new challenge, then fine. I just hope it wouldn’t be because the Time Warner Freaks in suits wouldn’t pony up an extra mil.

  31. 31
    Mac Thomason Says:

    If the Braves won’t match, or at least come close, I can’t blame him for leaving.

  32. 32
    David Remy Says:

    No, you can’t blame him because that would be an insult.

  33. 33
    Smitty Says:

    Ok I just read the AJC article, he is gone.

  34. 34
    Smitty Says:

    THe only chance we have now is if I win the powerball tonight. I will pay Leo 2 million for two years.

  35. 35
    Kirk Says:

    What would be the basis for compensation from the O’s? He’s not under contract for next year. Is it to avoid nastiness over a verbal commitment?

  36. 36
    joshq Says:

    Just how Cheap are the owners of the Atlanta Braves?

    I know that question may get many expletives, so be aware kids may be watching.

  37. 37
    JC Says:

    Read this, he’s really gone. Maybe he changes his mind overnight, but I think it’s a done deal. Let’s just hope the Braves don’t end up with another Sosa.

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-mazzone1019,1,7564362.story?coll=bal-sports-baseball&ctrack=1&cset=true

  38. 38
    spike Says:

    The Braves will argue that the deal was in place before his contract expired.

    ps – I just had a baby daughter, hence my disappearance for the last couple of weeks.

  39. 39
    kc Says:

    I bet it is because the Braves and Leo already have a handsake agreement in place to returning next season. Then, the Yankees and the O’s jumped on the chance to get Leo, and Leo responsed by seeking permission from JS to talk with the Yankees and the O’s. If Leo indeed wants to leave, the Yankees or the O’s have to compensate the Braves because there is already a verbel agreement in place between Leo and the Braves for next season. Nothing wrong with what the Braves do, just a very corporate culture thing and not a lot of loyalty or love shown to Leo in the process…

  40. 40
    Bell Curve Says:

    Congrats, Spike! I will smoke an e-cigar for you.

  41. 41
    Smitty Says:

    Here are the top prospects in the O’s system:
    Nick Markakis LF
    Hayden Penn, rhp
    Adam Loewen, lhp
    Val Majewski, of

    Loewen has a good curve and was their top prospect last season, Majewski has good plate disp., Penn has a good change up, and Markakis is just a good hitter.

    I bet we wouldn’t get any of those guys, but I think it would be what Leo is worth (at least to me!)

  42. 42
    kc Says:

    Congrats to new daddy Spike!!!

  43. 43
    David Remy Says:

    Well, Leo has certainly demonstrated his loyalty to Bobby Cox and the Braves, and now it would appear he’s showing his loyalty to Perlozzo, which is rather refreshing to see. Who would pass up a chance to coach with your best pal?

    At least Leo won’t be going to the Yankees.

    Congratulations, Spike! If I still lived in Atlanta, I’d buy you a beer in L5P.

  44. 44
    spike Says:

    Thanks – the sleep deprivation is murder though. Cards are down early. I would be surprised if we got much in the way of comp for Leo. The best course would be to throw money at him until he stays, but of course, THAT ain’t gonna happen

  45. 45
    Smitty Says:

    COngrats Spike! Think your kid would be a good pitching coach? I hear there is going to be a job opening soon.

    I bet we bring in a cheap guy who like pitcher to practice with softballs. I should have stayed away from the Braves after the Houston game.

  46. 46
    Stephen Says:

    Mazzone has been arguably the most underpaid man in baseball. It should not be surprising that he would talk to the O’s. Once parties start talking it is unrealistic to rule out the possiblity (as many in Atlanta have over the last couple of days) that Mazzone might leave. That said, I hate to imagine that Braves could not match their offer. It is hard for me to think that the Braves could really be compensated. At least there is nothing new about this on the O’s site….

  47. 47
    kc Says:

    Well, spike, you are not going to get much sleep before your daughter’s first birthday!!!

    It’s impossible if beat Oswalt if Mulder is not on top of his game. Sosa did as well as he could in his start against Oswalt.

    I bet the Braves will seek for a top prospect/establish player in return for Leo, much like what the Mariners did when the Rays hired Pinella. If not, I will be pissed.

  48. 48
    Kirk Says:

    I dunno, if my best pal was a manager (and not even the top dog) of an obviously flailing company, I think I might be able to pass it up. If this does happen, my prediction is that from a career standpoint, this will rank right up there with “Glavine signs with Mets”. Just a bad idea with no realistic upside.

  49. 49
    kc Says:

    If the Braves paid $600K for the “service” of Brain Jordan, I have a hard time to understand why they wouldn’t pay $400k to Leo…

  50. 50
    ububba Says:

    Spike,

    Rock on, big daddy.

  51. 51
    Mac Thomason Says:

    The Braves have pushed loyalty a long way, and finally loyalty has come back to bite them. They deserve this. No multiyear contracts? Below-market salary? This is the sort of stuff I thought baseball teams had stopped doing twenty-five years ago.

    If they’re not willing to pay market wages, it will probably be Dal Canton in the short term, but he’s not a long term pitching coach.

  52. 52
    JoeyT Says:

    Leo’s not under contract. Remember, the retarded Braves don’t sign coaches to multi-year deals. The Braves get nothing.

  53. 53
    JC Says:

    The guy I’m most scared of as a replacement is Guy Hansen, who is now available due to his “awesome” work in KC. Can you imagine if the Braves replace Mazzone with the coach who guided his team to the worst ERA in the league in 2005?

  54. 54
    kc Says:

    Didn’t Hansen joined KC until very late into the season? Nobody can save THAT pitching staff…

  55. 55
    ububba Says:

    I’m with Mac here. I can’t blame Leo for leaving. His window for reaping big financial benefits is shrinking and, really, what else does he have to prove in Atlanta? Hate to say it, but pay the man or move on.

    On a totally different tip, is Oswalt dealing or what tonight?

  56. 56
    Stu Says:

    Maybe they’ll give us Mora…left field/lead off problem solved…we could devote all our resources to acquiring a frontline-starter and bullpen depth…who am I kidding? I’m devastated.

  57. 57
    spike Says:

    Joey –

    In theory, Mazzone is under contract until Nov 15, hence the whole “permission” dance. Any deal done prior to that date would qualify for some compensation, but I don’t think much.

    kc –

    For once, thank god for my constant business travel.

  58. 58
    kc Says:

    The Cardinals are not really that good beyond Pujols, Edmonds, Carpenter, and Isringhausen. They won a 100-game largely because they kill the Brewers, Pirates, and the Reds. If the Cardinals plays the NL East more often, I bet they will only win a game or two more than the Braves. I would have to admit, however, that the Cards are a lot more dangerous if Rolen is in the lineup.

  59. 59
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Joe Posnanski:

    Pitching coach No. 5: Guy Hansen

    Hired: Oct. 3, 2004.

    Background: Minor-league pitcher who won seven games at San Jose; fell in love with pitching mechanics when reading Bob Shaws book on pitching during a hospital stay. He was pitching coach for the Richmond Braves for four seasons.

    What they said about him: Tony Pena: Hes a great pitching coach.

    Hansens excitement level: Off the charts. Ive never been around so many good arms in all my life, he said.

    Overall philosophy: The first key to pitching is vision. The second key is direction. The third key is tempo. And the fourth key is, um, the fourth key is, um Ill remember in a minute.

    What he did: What didnt he do? He tried to move Zack Greinke over on the rubber. He reworked Mike MacDougals delivery. He taught Andrew Sisco a new pitch and helped Jeremy Affeldt learn a change-up. He visited pitchers often during games.

    Pet project: Mike Wood. He reminds me of Greg Maddux, Hansen said.

    How the pet project did: Wood finished 5-8 with a 4.46 ERA. It was the best ERA for any Royals starter.

    Key to pitching success: It doesnt matter if you have generic stuff or great stuff, you have no choice but to go inside.

    Results: Royals set a team record for worst ERA (5.49). Jose Lima was 5-16 and had a 6.99 ERA, a major-league record for worst ERA with at least 30 starts. Greinke, the teams big prospect, was 5-17 with a 5.80 ERA. Runelvys Hernandez led the team with eight victories. On the bright side, Mike MacDougal had 21 saves and a 3.33 ERA.

    Fired: Oct. 2, 2005.

    What they said: Royals manager Buddy Bell: It wasnt anything real specific.

    What Hansen said: There was never a good union between me and Buddy.

    More than I normally quote, but you can’t pick and choose from that.

  60. 60
    ububba Says:

    Pitch inside? Rather opposite from Leo’s philosophy.

  61. 61
    Kirk Says:

    How is Leo’s window shrinking? I’m not saying I blame him, but here is another way he could play it: accept your handshake agreement for 2006, make it clear to the brass that you expect a multi-year contract with a significant raise next year to give them some time to get used to the idea, then if they don’t pony up say your goodbyes at the end of next season. There’s always an opening somewhere for a top-flight pitching coach, and he could expect to command similar money and perhaps a better situation. If top management of a company stinks, it doesn’t matter if you report to your best friend, ultimately you will regret it.

  62. 62
    Mac Thomason Says:

    In a year, the Yankees will have a coach and the Orioles will have a coach. The Red Sox don’t believe in star managers, so I doubt they believe in star coaches. The Mets will presumably still have Peterson. That’s most of the big-money franchises right there. There will be people hiring, but people willing to go multiple years for big money?

  63. 63
    spike Says:

    Wow – the Cards just can’t buy a call.

  64. 64
    Kirk Says:

    What I’m saying is that if the Orioles are your answer, you aren’t asking the right questions.

  65. 65
    spike Says:

    That was some crappy throw by Tavares. francouer would have had him.

  66. 66
    ububba Says:

    Kirk,

    I love your scenario. And you may be right, but if Leo’s unhappy about his compensation, I’m guessing that he thinks the time to leave is now. I can’t imagine that his value will ever be higher than it is now.

    We don’t know any terms of any deal right now, but I’d be surprised if it weren’t at least 2 years and for at least as much money per year as Stottlemyre got.

  67. 67
    Mac Thomason Says:

    He’s 59 years old, Kirk. This could be his last chance at a big score. It isn’t like a player who’s already made $25 million choosing between $15 million and $20 million. Leo’s well off, but he’s not in that bracket.

  68. 68
    Kirk Says:

    True the extra dollars are worth more to him. And I agree that the Braves should be willing to match the Orioles, he’s pretty obviously worth it. But I just don’t think the risk of waiting another year to see what develops is all that great in his case. The market for his services are not going to dry up.

  69. 69
    kc Says:

    Maybe this is JS and Leo’s strategy to get that payraise for Leo. JS told Leo to establish his own market value, and he will convince AOL to match the offer to keep Leo. It’s hard to convince AOL to pay Leo more without a competitive bidding.

  70. 70
    David Remy Says:

    Leo might play the Yankees like that–and more power to him, I say!–but the same doesn’t apply to Perlozzo.

  71. 71
    rb from across the country Says:

    Someone over on baseball primer linked this story from a while back:

    http://www.times-news.com/articles/2004/12/02/sections/regional_sports/sports61.txt

    The pertinent part is at the very end:

    A successful manager in the minor leagues, Mazzone says he has no aspirations to manage in the big leagues.

    “No way,” he said. “My only other aspiration is to be Sam’s pitching coach. After that, we’ll be done.”

    The time for Perlozzo, who has interviewed for the Seattle Mariners job as well as the Orioles’ position twice, to manage in the big leagues is drawing near, according to Mazzone.

    “It’s going to happen,” he said. “There is no doubt in my mind or the minds of anybody in the big leagues. Sam is going to be a manager, and a (darn) good one at that. And like I said, I’ll be his pitching coach, and after that? We’ll be done.

  72. 72
    NMS Says:

    ohhh noooo Lord whyyyyy

  73. 73
    Dix Says:

    so the braves just need to sign Perlozzo to manage?

  74. 74
    JoeyT Says:

    Wow, rb. That pretty much seals it.

    Ouch.

    I’ve gone from almost vomiting from wanting to cry.

  75. 75
    Smitty Says:

    I hope we hire someong from in the system

  76. 76
    Smitty Says:

    …or I wonder if we can get this guy from the Astros.

  77. 77
    mln Says:

    I thought Leo was Bobby Cox’s best friend!

  78. 78
    sansho1 Says:

    OK, Glavine-haters, time to let Mazzone have it, right? What parallels don’t apply here? A longtime Brave, without question integral to the unequaled success of the franchise, leaves for a better offer late in his career. I mean, we hate him now, don’t we? Don’t we?

  79. 79
    'Rissa Says:

    I’m not a Glavine hater, but he and Mazzone don’t exactly parallel. Glavine went to the METS for money and Mazzone appears to be going to the Orioles for his best friend. A little different, in that respect

  80. 80
    Johnny Says:

    Congratulations Spike. I have 4 kids. Being a dad is the best thing that I’ve ever done in my life.

    I don’t blame Leo just like I didn’t blame Glavine, Sheffield, Javy or any of the other folks who left for greener pastures. A nearly 100% raise and some security are priceless even at those guys income levels.

    Why do I get the feeling that money is only one of the reasons that he is leaving?

    Just to repeat myself. Leo will be missed. There is a direct correlation to the Braves success and the annual reclamation project pitcher(s) that seem to come out of no where. Jorge Sosa, Jaret Wright, John Burkett, Chris Hammond just to name a few. All of these guys attribute their rise from the ashes to playing for the Braves and having Leo Mazzone as thier pitching coach.

    But y’all are way overstating the effect the pitching coach has on the success of this baseball team. Alex R. I’m sorry but Leo Mazzone is NOT the #1 reason the Braves have had a 14 year record of success. The Braves have been blessed with great players sir. You know Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, et al. No one was calling Leo a genius when the pitching staff had Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Avery/Neagle as the top 4. They were saying that its nice to have a 100 million dollar payroll.
    Its the players dude. Its also a lot of good fortune. That we are in the NL East home of the dysfunctional Marlins, Mets, Phillies and Nats. That stupid Bud Selig continues to use the unbalanced schedule so that we get to beat the crap out of said dysfunctional teams. That we get lucky as hell that JD Drew and Eli Marrero have a career year in the same season. That no one bothered to scout Jeff Francouer (see dysfunctional teams above) and figure out that a high tight fast ball would get him out every time before he ably assisted Andruw in carrying us to another division in July and August.

    Its an astute organization that with little sentimenality will let guys go and replace them with as good or better. How they do it is still a mystery. Its clear that statistical analysis does not have large part in the team’s decisions but more often than not they seem to find the right players. Not enough to win a World Series but thats another rant. The Braves will find another pitching coach. Will he be as good as Leo? Maybe not but maybe when Leo gets to Balmore (done on purpose thats the way they say it according to a friend of mine from there) he might find out that given the players he’s dealt he might not be such a genius after all.

  81. 81
    'Rissa Says:

    Nevertheless, I’m with JoeyT in that right now I just want to cry.

  82. 82
    Smitty Says:

    Johnny makes a good point

  83. 83
    kc Says:

    Johnny, I bet there are lots of people saying the same thing you said at AOL. To me, these are nothing but excuses for not paying an employee his or her deserved market price.

  84. 84
    JoeyT Says:

    As soon as the Mazzone move is finally, officially announced (probably after Nov 15), I will bet any one on this board the Braves don’t make the playoffs next year.

    Thanks for the info on the contract expiration date, by the way, Spike. And congrats on your kid.

  85. 85
    'Rissa Says:

    Do you mean we are going to have to speculate for a month? That would be something.

  86. 86
    Smitty Says:

    Why is Lidge not warming up?

  87. 87
    JoeyT Says:

    Naw, it will probably be all-but-official until then. Also, the Braves could just release him so they can get on with finding a “replacement”. There will probably be at the very least an agreement in principle by the end of the window.

  88. 88
    Smitty Says:

    We should shoot for the wild card next year

  89. 89
    kc Says:

    Pujols will have to hit a grand slam to tie this one…

    The Braves should have beaten the Astros. The Astros were a better team last year, but not this year…I am still bitter…

  90. 90
    ububba Says:

    This year’s Astros kinda remind me of the 2000 Mets. The Mets were better in 1999, except that they added Hampton. This year Houston is worse, except they have a healthy Pettitte.

  91. 91
    Smitty Says:

    Did anyone call for an Astros White Sox Serise?

  92. 92
    Kyle S Says:

    the folks on primer think the player is Nick Markarkis. I’d hate to lose leo, but that would go a long way toward easing the pain.

    congrats, spike. welcome to the club. what’s her name? our first daughter (fiona) was born in june, and she’s still waking up at 4am like a champ.

    why don’t the braves give out multi-year contracts? what a ridiculous situation. talk about penny wise, pound foolish.

  93. 93
    JoeyT Says:

    Why would there be a player when the O’s could wait a month and get him with no compensation?

    Am I not understanding something about the process?

  94. 94
    ububba Says:

    Fox are such idiots. They were only a decade off on the Texas Rangers graphic. Jeez.

  95. 95
    Smitty Says:

    Astors win

  96. 96
    Smitty Says:

    “94. Nick Markakis- OF Bal (11/17/83) Markakis is still a bit raw in some areas and he has some work to do, but the ability is there. I saw him early in the year and didn’t see why everyone was so high on him. Then, when I saw him again late in the year, he looked like a much improved player. He was more confident and had a much better idea at the plate yet, I think he’s a ways from the Majors.”

    TMF top 100 as of January 05

  97. 97
    Smitty Says:

    BURN DOWN BUSH!!!!!!

  98. 98
    jenny Says:

    The O’s are giving up Nick Markakis for Leo? Wow. The fans aren’t going to be happy about that, at least the knowledgeable ones.

    spike, congratulations! I’m very happy for you. Does the baby have a name?

    Alex R, no offense taken. The city of Baltimore sucks. It’s dirty, disgusting, and has, I believe, the 4th highest murder rate in the US. When I’m there I hole up in a Wyndham Inner Harbor Hotel and never leave. I’m a Washington person before a Baltimore person even though I’m from Maryland, but the Orioles are my home team and I would NEVER root for the Natspos. Not unless they switch divisions. So I’m torn on this, obviously.

    Astros-White Sox…I hate both teams. Maybe I can finally watch a baseball game without caring about either side and just enjoy the game itself. A novel experience.

  99. 99
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Momentum is the next day’s starting pitcher. When it’s Roy Oswalt…

  100. 100
    jenny Says:

    And yes, just as I predicted, the knowledgeable O’s fans are up in arms. Right now they are saying they will sign him on Nov. 16th when his contract runs out and give out no compensation. This would make sense if the Braves FO was as dumb as the O’s FO and would allow this to happen, which I doubt it will. That gives them extra time for more negotiating…we shall see.

  101. 101
    JoeyT Says:

    Momentum is the next day’s starting pitcher.

    I like that line.

  102. 102
    JoeyT Says:

    How could the Braves stop this from happening? They have no leverage because of their retarded “OMG we are NOT signing a COACH to a multi-year deal!” stance.

  103. 103
    Smitty Says:

    We could say we have an agreement with Leo and they will have to fork over something. If the Baltimore-Sun says they have a deal and they do, then we have to get something

  104. 104
    Smitty Says:

    I am glad Biggio and Bagwell are going to play in the WS

  105. 105
    jenny Says:

    We really don’t have any leverage except an extra couple of weeks to negotiate. But if he doesn’t want to return that means nothing. So never mind.

  106. 106
    JoeyT Says:

    I’m confused. How do the Braves get anything out of this? The Braves do not have Mazzone under contract for next year. He is free to sign with whomever he pleases. The Braves have given the O’s permission to talk with Mazzone. They can hammer out an agreement in principle, just leave it unsigned until his current contract expires. The only reasons the O’s would sign him right now would be if they were afraid a better offer would come along or if the Braves grant him a premature release.

    What am I missing out of this that would allow the Braves to demand compensation? As far as I know, Mazzone’s a free agent as soon as his contract expires.

  107. 107
    kc Says:

    That gloveman shortstop will cost more the Leo. How stupid if Leo indeed jumping ship.

    The Cardinals suck…Tony LaRussa sucks…Jason Marquis really sucks…

  108. 108
    sansho1 Says:

    Momentum is the next day’s starting pitcher.

    I like that line.

    Thank Earl Weaver, just to bring this full-circle.

  109. 109
    kc Says:

    JoeyT, an agreement does not need to be signed for being legally binding.

  110. 110
    JoeyT Says:

    Oh, is that an Earl Weaver line? Here I thought Mac was being all creative.

  111. 111
    JoeyT Says:

    Oh, I see. So, the theory of Braves compensation comes from the hypothesis that before Perlozzo was named manager, which probably would have been when Mazzone seriously considered leaving, the Braves and Mazzone came to an oral agreement regarding his return for the next season?

    Okay, I can see that. Seems more like wishful thinking, especially since terms like “invited” and “option” are used in the articles, but it’s plausable. Thanks for your answer, kc.

  112. 112
    ububba Says:

    Karl Ravech on Baseball Tonight: “Bobby Cox doesn’t necessarily get to a lot of World Series.”

    Earth to Karl: Can you count to 5?

  113. 113
    jenny Says:

    So does the quote “The deal is finished business” from the AP mean it’s definite and we’re getting compensation and Leo is leaving NOW?

    Yahoo Sports

  114. 114
    JoeyT Says:

    Nope. If I’m the Braves, and I don’t have the oral agreement, I go ahead and release Mazzone from his contract so I can start the process of hiring his replacement.

    Also, that’s a source close saying the deal is finished. That could mean that it’s finished in principle but can’t be made official for a couple of weeks.

    That quote doesn’t mean anything except as another piece of evidence that he’s leaving.

  115. 115
    kc Says:

    I think now is up to the Braves to react, either seeking compensation in return or matching the O’s offer…but I guess we all know the former is more likely to happan…

  116. 116
    JoeyT Says:

    This whole thing makes me ill. I still can’t believe it’s really happening.

    I mean, we all knew it would happen eventually, I was just hoping for one more title.

  117. 117
    urlhix Says:

    Earl Weaver, the reason why I LIKE the O’s. That and Eddie Murray. Baltimore may be a DIRTY, “disgusting” city, but, honestly, that is what puts the CHARM in Charm City. That and the GREAT cast of characters that LIVE there. GO eat at Jimmy’s in Fells Point (or go to Patterson Park or any other neighborhood in the city) and enjoy the best PEOPLE watching on the EAST coast. Not to mention the Sip and Cup. I understand it is not for everyone, but the FREAKS in this world need a place to live too, especially now that N.O is going to be Disneyfied. They all can’t AFFORD to live in the O.C or Tulsa. Thank the FSM that there are still a FEW places left in this country that aren’t all STRIP MALLS and Bennigan’s. Sorry for the rant but I have spent a LOT of time there and have quite a few friends there and I can say that B’morz, as a city, has waaay more personality than ATLANTA will ever have. Except for the fact that we HAVE the Braves.Leo should stay. But I don’t BLAME him if he leaves. It should be PLAIN to everyone that our corporate overlords don’t CARE about baseball.

  118. 118
    JoeyT Says:

    “Perlozzo was the best man at Mazzone’s wedding.”

    Even if the Braves match, Mazzone walks. That article someone linked before was telling, with the quotes at the end about Mazzone wanting to be Perlozzo’s pitching coach years ago when he was up for the Mariners job. He’s been waiting for this for a while.

    And because the Braves didn’t sign him to a multi-year, unless the unlikely “oral agreement” was reached, the club gets nothing for him. Nada 3.

    This is a horrible day. Like multiple playoff losses all rolled into one.

  119. 119
    BWall Says:

    I can’t believe that no one has mentioned the possibility of the Braves hiring Mel Stottlemyre. I know he is a Yankee but he was a teammate with Cox way back when. He is not as good as Mazzone but hey, he has a good resume under his belt! To me, he has the resume, the experience, and knowledge of the game that you just don’t get working in the minors with 19 year olds.

    Since he left New York because he was tired of being scrutinized and tired of listening to Georgie Boy whine and moan everytime they got beat by teams like the D-Rays with his $200 million payroll, he might like the nice quiet environment of Atlanta where the pace of life is much slower and appreciation is given. Just a thought on my behalf.

  120. 120
    ububba Says:

    It’s done apparently–a three-year deal.

    Next…

  121. 121
    putter Says:

    I agree BWall, I was thinking the same thing about Stottlemyre. He certainly would bring the good resume with him, but it just wouldn’t seem right for him to be in Atlanta instead of Leo.

  122. 122
    Gregson Says:

    I can’t help but wonder (again) about Brian Price. He just quit the Mariners, in his words “to get out of his comfort zone.” For most of the past 5 years he was considered, after Leo, the brightest mind among pitching coaches (among BPers, at least). No doubt Jim Hickey has taken that mantle, with the job he’s done in Houston, but Price has to be on every team’s short list.

  123. 123
    kc Says:

    I mean, sometimes, it’s good to have changes after things staying the same for so many years, but it’s just sad that Leo is leaving because of money…and $400k is really nothing considering how much the likes of Kolb, Martin, Perez, Jordan and Mondesi made last year…sigh…it’s not the end of the world though folks….

  124. 124
    ububba Says:

    All the talk in NYC about Stottlemyre had him going “home” to Seattle perhaps to the Mariners job, with a little talk about possibly taking the Arizona gig.

  125. 125
    Grst Says:

    The article on the Braves MLB site mentions Stottlemeyre.

  126. 126
    david15 Says:

    “They all can’t AFFORD to live in [...] Tulsa.”

    heh, what the hell is that supposed to mean?

  127. 127
    JoeyT Says:

    kc, I don’t think it’s money. Really, that article rb put up is pretty revealing. He was saying years ago that whenever his BFF got a chance to manage, he wanted to be the pitching coach. The BFF was signed to a three year deal around the 12th. Barely a week later, Mazzone jumped on.

    The Yankees thing was probably just a financial ploy, either to extract more money from the O’s or figure out what his market value was going into negotiations.

    I literally can’t sleep. The run is over.

  128. 128
    Stephen Says:

    The O’s site reports that Leo may sign for nearly double the money he would get in Atlanta. Well, much as I HATE to see him go, more power to him!

    All of I have do is recall how little Jaret Wright (often then called Jaret Wrong) was worth when he showed up in Atlanta with an ERA over 8.00. After 2004 he gets 20+ million from the Yanks. The Braves at least got 2 draft picks and a great season. All of this was unthinkable with Mazzone. So, why should he settle for crumbs?

    Since he has been massively underpaid, the only mystery to me is why this has taken so long.

    At least the Yanks didn’t get him–and they have Wright and his fat contract.

  129. 129
    kc Says:

    Well, JoeyT, my feeling is like a old friend leaving us. I guess the reason is no longer important. Well, on the other hand, there is another reason for Bobby to win another manager of the year award next season. I promise if the Braves pitching do not show any sign of missing Leo next year, I will stop all of bitching and complaining about Bobby.

  130. 130
    David Remy Says:

    Stottlemyre may like the idea of coaching for a perennial contender like the Braves, but there’s no way he would take a big pay cut.

    You know what? I feel embarrassed about the way the Braves have treated Leo. I had no idea he was making such a low salary. I mean, a coach with his proven ability makes less than the league minimum for a roster player. Some buck-toothed kid from Richmond can earn more just by getting called up? That’s a crying shame.

  131. 131
    David Remy Says:

    I feel the way I did when Aaron, Niekro, and Murphy left the team. It may be time to study Kubler-Ross again.

  132. 132
    lagfish Says:

    It’s over.

  133. 133
    Stephen Says:

    I agree with David and others. One of the worst things about this is that Braves hardly seem to have put up a fight to keep Leo.

    It is possible that given Leo’s friendship with Perlozzo, they realized that they had no alternative. That is to put the best face on it.

    Replacing Leo? Stottlemyre is probably not the answer the question which may very well be going through JS’s mind is this the beginning of the end of Cox era? It is hard to imagine Bobby without Leo and while I am sure that Cox will be at the helm in 2006, the possibility of new management may well begin to define the horizon.

    Lets hope that they have someone (I hope that Dal Canton can stay at the Beach, because of the huge crop of pitchers who should be arriving from Rome) waiting in the wings….

  134. 134
    Alex R. Says:

    Good Morning fellow Bloggers,

    First, there’s another important element to this story that everyone has left out: It’s not JUST that Mazzone & Perlozzo (Curious…are they big ZZ Top fans together?) are lifelong friends, they are lifelong friends who apparently grew up together in CUMBERLAND, MARYLAND…yes, Cumberland is maybe a half hour from Baltimore.

    This would add another LAYER to this story…first, it means there’s probably about 100 Mazzone’s and Perlozzo’s that BBQ together in bumblefuck, Maryland have been for 30 years, and both guys probably grew up together being ORIOLES FANS.

    Here’s another assumption…besides the fact that Perlozzo (who I met in 1985 when he was third base coach of the Mets and I was 10 years old) is a local Ballmore guy (deliberate misspelling & pronunciation of how the idiots around here pronounce their city), my assumption is Orioles management said when interviewing Perlozzo about keeping the job and possibly considering to let him go, Perlozzo played his TRUMP CARD and told O’s management that he could deliver the biggest fish in Baseball to Ballmore…Leo Mazzone.

    My assumption is that O’s management probably was thinking…”gee, spend more money and get Lou Piniella or spend less and keep the local guy who can land us the best pitching coach in Baseball?”

    Just an assumption on my part but I am guessing Perlozzo name dropped to get the full time gig.

    Now a few other items.

    ‘Rissa: Your comparison of Glavine & Mazzone leaving couldn’t be MORE off base. The one thing that is correct is I am not mad at either guy because they did the best things for each of their families. So Tommy, thanks for your 17 years and Leo, thanks for your 15 years. Sincerely.

    But back to ‘Rissa talking about Glavine leaving for the money, consider this. Leo Mazzone is a PITCHING COACH. You don’t have to be a certain age to be one and can be a pitching coach for 50 years if you like. It doesn’t require taking advantage of a small window of your life when you can actually PLAY BASEBALL.

    You should be sympathetic to Glavine because A) he dedicated 17 years to the Atlanta organization and led us to our ONE AND ONLY world championship (and I still don’t know why mac won’t come on here and back this up because I know he agrees with people like myself and sansho1 on this) and B) Pitchers don’t PITCH forever and Glavine having an opportunity at age 35 or 36 to get another 3 year deal with a 4th year option, HE HAD TO TAKE IT…I DON’T BEGRUDGE TOMMY AT ALL.

    That’s the main point about Glavine…it was partly due to the financial offer (and why is that so wrong of him anyway? geez…I like making money and I bet many of you do or want to, right?) but also the security, at his age (which is like senior citizen for pitchers) to have that guaranteed contract.

    And while Leo Mazzone can coach for 20 more years because being a pitching coach doesn’t require anything phsyical, why shouldn’t Leo take a multi year, higher dollar offer from a team 30 minutes from his hometown to coach with his best lifelong buddy? I mean, it’s a slam dunk for him.

    I hate that he’s gone but he’s made a move that’s good for him and I second Mac completely…it’s the Braves own fault anyway for not locking the best pitching coach in Baseball up with a lot of money and years that he deserved.

    Anyway, I just hope Braves have a contigency plan.

  135. 135
    Alex R. Says:

    Oh, on the Ballmore vs. Atlanta thing…the person who said earlier that Ballmore is more interesting than Atlanta maybe right to a point…yeah, I am more likely to do or catch some disease in a city like Ballmore…I suppose that’s interesting.

    But if you offered me a million dollars to live in Ballmore or nothing to live in Atlanta and make a choice, Atlanta ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. Ballmore SUCKS…it’s dirty, disgusting and so are most of the people.

    Again, except for some Edga Allen Poe-try, the only other thing that Ballmore has produced that is really really worthwhile is the TV series “Homicide”…which again, was about murder in Ballmore (I mean, could you really do a romantic comedy in ballmore?)…one of the 10 greatest TV shows of all time. That’s it for Ballmore, nadda. zilch. zero.

    Atlanta wins BY FAR. I mean, c’mon…where did the Vikings order their strippers from? Not Ballmore…ATLANTA. :-)

  136. 136
    Alex R. Says:

    meant to say “more likely to DIE OR catch some disease”

  137. 137
    Kirk Says:

    The link that rb provided is the most telling in this whole saga. It’s pretty clear now that Leo was not really interested in the Yankees, but his lawyer used them to set the market to ensure that the Orioles would pony up an attractive offer. This is what a good agent is supposed to do. Knowing how close Leo and Perlozzo were, Braves management could have (and should have) negotiated a multi-year deal with him as soon as Perlozzo was made the interim manager. He’s obviously worth the major league player minimum salary, and they could have found that money between the seat cushions in the CEO’s office. I wish Leo nothing but the best, but I would be pretty surprised if this ends up working out well for him (other than financially I mean). His situation and Glavine’s really don’t have much in common (and let’s please not get into another round of posts about why we should or shouldn’t hate Tommy — everybody has already made up their minds about this, and rehashing it yet again won’t make any difference).

  138. 138
    Alex R. Says:

    Kirk,

    I know I shouldn’t have re-hashed about Glavine but I take it really hard when Braves fans rip Tommy. It actually upsets me MORE THEN ANYTHING in terms of the Braves.

    I just can’t believe that Braves fans could be so blinded to his 17 years of service and helping us win our ONLY world series and in his late 30′s, he gets a good monied 3 year deal and SHOULD TAKE LESS years and money to stay in Atlanta?

    I mean, are, WE, Braves fans, so selfish and arrogant that we begrudge a guy making more money over an extra 1-2 years when he’s close to an age where he won’t get any contract offers….I am just stunned and disheartened by how selfish and mean spirited and short sighted Braves fans are who rip Glavine for taking a longer deal with more money. I don’t understand, especially when this guy will rightly go to Cooperstown in a Braves uni.

  139. 139
    Stu Says:

    I agree, Kirk, both about what this move will do career-wise for Leo, and that EVERYBODY should lay off the Glavine issue.

  140. 140
    JC Says:

    To put this penny-pinching in context. Assuming the Braves paid Todd Hollandsworth what was owed on his 2005 contract, they paid about $180,000 for him to come over from the Cubs. 40 PAs from Todd Hollandsworth or Leo Mazzone, which would you prefer?

    I don’t think Leo left for money, he left on principle. Something stinks in the front office right now. Look for more changes over the offseason. It maybe guys we rarely hear of, but I expect some turnover.

  141. 141
    Stu Says:

    “I know I shouldn’t have rehashed Glavine…”

    “[3 additional full paragraphs rehashing Glavine.]“

  142. 142
    Stu Says:

    I think you’re probably right, JC. I can smell the stench from here. Not to pay possibly the greatest specialty coach in the history of the game…that’s a disgrace, and we Braves fans should be embarassed for our organization.

  143. 143
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Stu, that was baiting. Stop it.

  144. 144
    Stu Says:

    If that’s baiting, what do you call bringing up controversial issues that people have requested not be brought up, and that really don’t pertain to the discussion at hand? I was just pointing out inconsistencies, actually trying to avoid starting this Glavine thing all over again, especially since, as multiple people here have acknowledged, the two situations have very little in common.

  145. 145
    ARR Says:

    Didn’t Leo’s contract expire Nov. 1? I’ll miss Leo, but it’s funny to me that the O’s were so overanxious that they would rather give up a player than wait 10 days.

  146. 146
    korobeiniki Says:

    Here’s the one and only thing to say: The Glavine and Mazzone situations parallel a lot more than you think, although I must agree that this leave seems to be a lot more driven by morals.

    Both were more or less insulted by the Braves organization with their growing contentment with underpaying and pissing off long-time employees, and in the end, these two had to look out for number one. And there is NOTHING wrong with that whatsoever.

    However, an unfortunate side effect will prove to be that both of them left for losing situations. Although I think Leo can do a lot of good with that young pitching staff over there, it’s far from the winning tradition in Atlanta.

    All the best to Leo. He deserves to have piece of mind in a contract, and if you’re gonna coach, why rock on the bench right next to your best man?

  147. 147
    timo Says:

    SCHEISSE!! Here we go:
    BALTIMORE (AP) — Pitching coach Leo Mazzone and the Baltimore Orioles reached agreement on a three-year contract Wednesday night, hours after the Atlanta Braves coach ended discussions with the New York Yankees.

    “The deal is finished business,” according to a source close to the negotiations, who spoke to The Associated Press on the condition of anonymity.

    Mazzone, considered to be one of the finest pitching coaches in the majors, has been in the Atlanta organization since 1979 and was pitching coach of the Braves since 1990. He will replace Ray Miller, who served as pitching coach of the Orioles since June 26, 2004.

    Orioles executive vice president Mike Flanagan declined comment, and Baltimore manager Sam Perlozzo, a longtime friend of Mazzone, did not return a phone call from The Associated Press.

    Mazzone, 57, and Perlozzo grew up together in Cumberland, Md. The competed on different teams in American Legion ball, then became best friends. Perlozzo was the best man at Mazzone’s wedding.

    Earlier Wednesday, the Yankees ended talks with Mazzone after their three-day window to negotiate with him expired.

    “Both sides agreed to end their discussions without resolution,” Yankees spokesman Jason Zillo said.

    Mazzone is credited with helping develop Greg Maddux, John Smoltz and Tom Glavine. From 1992 through this season, the Braves ranked first or second in the NL in ERA in every year but two.

    Perlozzo was pleased with Miller’s performance as pitching coach, but has said he wanted to work with Mazzone. Miller, who had surgery last week to repair an aortic aneurysm, gave Perlozzo permission to talk to another pitching coach before his surgery.

  148. 148
    sansho1 Says:

    I brought up the Glavine comparison last night, in a bald-faced attempt to stir the pot a bit. It was pretty much ignored for a while…thought I’d lost my touch…

    But I was also a bit serious about it, and I find comparing the fan reaction to the departure of two longtime Braves to be very much on-topic (if somewhat meta), thank you. If you say that reactions differ because the situations are different and here’s how, that’s interesting to me, although I find more similarities than differences.

    My opinion is that a lot of it has to do with personality projection — Glavine, while excellent for many years, cuts a cold figure, and it’s easy to cast him as a mercenary. Old Rockin’ Leo, all gruff and avuncular, well this decision has to have torn him apart, right? In truth, there’s no way to know that Glavine didn’t cry in his milk while Mazzone popped the cork on the champagne, or vice versa. But it seems easier in the case of Leo to remember that they’re all human beings first, Braves second. In any case, I wish him well, as I have for all who depart. OK, maybe not Kenny Lofton….

  149. 149
    Kyle S Says:

    Ugh, you guys really want Mel Stottlemyre? Here’s a list of recent Yankee pitchers who have done better with the Yankees than they did with their previous team:

    Here is a list of young Yankee starters who have come up and given more than a season’s worth of starts to the Yanks under Stottlemyre:

    Andy Pettite

    Here is a list of Yankee pitchers who pitched substantially worse after signing with the Yankees than they had previously:

    Randy Johnson
    Mike Mussina
    Jaret Wright
    Carl Pavano
    Kevin Brown
    Paul Quantrill

    Those lists aren’t too encouraging to me.

  150. 150
    Stu Says:

    It has nothing to do with personality. For me, it mostly has to do with, as ‘Rissa correctly pointed out earlier, the fact that Glavine left the Braves to go to their then-fiercest rival, and Mazzone went to the American League.

    Other factors: Mazzone seems to have left for friendship, while Glavine left clearly for nothing but money reasons. Even if you think there’s nothing wrong with looking out for yourself first, you have to acknowledge that leaving to be with your friend is more respectable than leaving to get paid more.

    Also, I think you could argue that the Braves offered Glavine a much more competitive contract than they did Leo, so Leo was that much more justified in leaving, but I think this is of minor importance in my overall feeling about the two situations. Mainly, it’s the Mets vs. Orioles thing.

  151. 151
    Alex R. Says:

    Stu,

    You know, I really try & come on here and joke about all the disagreeing but I am grateful to mac fo saying something. You come on here and bait me all the time and I think most people would agree you seem to go out of your way to argue and throw me under the bus whenever you get a chance. Your’s are the only posts on here that make me bristle, DAILY.

    If I want to write 3 paragraphs on Glavine, then I will write three paragraphs or more. He gave me a world title, 17 great years, and my father & I one of our happiest Baseball memories together when in 1995, he spent 45 minutes in a Philadelphia hotel lobby talking to us and not rushing off. It’s truly one of the happiest memories I will always have with my dad.

    So, Stu, if I want to come on here and defend a BRAVES hall of famer who gave blood, sweat & tears for 17 years in Atlanta, then I will DAMN WELL DO SO and if you have a problem, SO THE FUCK BE IT.

    Now that I have that off my chest, just a quick comment to your last post, sansho1…it’s funny about your ‘impressions’ of Glavine & Leo’s personalities.

    Now I have met Glavine but never met Leo so to be fair, I am saying this without having met Mazzone..but my brother has met Mazzone (and Glavine) since he’s a sports writer and he says Leo Mazzone is actually one of the coldest & least friendly people he’s met. Glavine on the other hand, was a warm, engaging, personal guy who took time to speak to people.

    Now with that said, I have love in my heart for both because of what they both have done for the city of Atlanta. I love Leo and wish he would stay but I just wanted to pass along information from my brother regarding Leo’s personality. The warm & fuzzies we feel for him is because of his tremendous success as a pitching coach. (which of course is much deserved).

  152. 152
    JC Says:

    If you don’t like players and managers switching teams, then just don’t watch baseball. That’s always been part of the game. Both sides, teams and players, do it.

  153. 153
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Stu, you know the difference. Several people brought up the Glavine situation (and I mentioned “players” in general) but you decided to pick on Alex for the purposes of starting a fight.

  154. 154
    Alex R. Says:

    Mac,

    I really appreciate it…honestly, the daily baiting is getting to me again and I really appreciate you saying something. THANK YOU.

  155. 155
    doubledawg Says:

    THE BIG PICTURE

    Bobby and Jon have K’s running out. My concern is that Bobby gave Leo his blessings, knowing that the “three wise” men would be breaking up in a year anyway. I bet Bobby and Jon are lookin to take off after an even 15. Then, the terry pendleton era begins???

  156. 156
    sansho1 Says:

    How about that, Alex — I never would have guessed.

  157. 157
    Johnny Says:

    JC, I didn’t want to start conspiracy theories and off the wall speculation. But since you have, what leads you to believe that there is a front office problem? Do you have any anecdotes, evidence, innuendo or rumors to that effect? The money, contract length and the friendship to Perlozzo make a nice story but I have to agree that there is something more to Leo leaving by the fact that the Braves (typically) are being so tight lipped and apparently have made no apparent attempt to counter Balmore’s offer.

    Since the speculation has started how about this one. I am a minority of one. Because I believe that the world doesn’t end and the Braves don’t go from model organization to the Devil Rays just because our esteemed pitching coach is leaving. What if, and all the ‘I don’t KNOW squat’ caveats apply here, Leo has started truly believing all of his press. That he is the end all and be all of pitching and if not for him the Braves would have sucked all those years he had Hall of Fame talent to work with. In an orgainization that believes the best ego is a supressed ego, it sure would explain the Brave’s reticence.

    From a financial perspective this is a no brainer for Mazzone. He’d be a fool not to take the offer. From a legacy perspective I think that he is going to find that the Orioles are the Orioles for a reason.

  158. 158
    Alex R. Says:

    Sansho1-

    To be fair to Leo, I am only going off what my brother said in meeting him and I haven’t spoekn to anyone else. But he could run over puppies with his car tomorrow and I would STILL be eternally grateful for the 15 years of service he’s provided our team :-)

  159. 159
    kc Says:

    I hate joining this Glavine and Leo comparison discussion because I don’t really see the benefit of comparing the two incident, but I guess I can’t stop myself…

    You know guys, If Leo is really leaving the Braves (it’s not final yet), it is actually worse than letting Glavine go in my humble opinion. I mean, I can see the point of letting Glavine go. Ok, the years and the dollars are too much for the Braves to stomach. I can take that because it is a sound financial decision.

    But Leo?! For the f’&%$#”!?ing difference of $150k and the Braves are letting one of the best pitching coach in history to go?! COMMON ON?! HOW STUPID IS THAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!??!?! AAAAAARRRRRAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

    I don’t think AOL cares to manage an $150K of additional expense on the income statement. There must be some bad blood between JS and Leo.

  160. 160
    Michael Says:

    Alex R.,

    My brother, who is also a sportswriter, ran into Leo in Cartersville, GA a few years back and Leo sat down and talked to him for a half hour or so about his philosophy on pitching and the Braves in general. It wasn’t even an interview, just sitting outside a Quiznos. I’d say that was pretty cool. Maybe your bro met him on a bad day.

    That said, I don’t blame Leo for leaving. Who stays in one job for this long anyway, in any walk of life. Sometimes, you need a change. Good luck to him.

  161. 161
    doubledawg Says:

    Cumberland, MD, (1958)

    Narrator: Two young boys, sit fishing. One isn’t very popular, his incessant rocking makes the other kids think he’s special.

    Lozzo: hey leo, if I ever manage the orioles, you should be my pitching coach.

    Leo: sure thing Lozzo, I’ll be your pitching coach.

    Lozzo: I mean it Leo, you have to swear, Im the only friend you got.

    Leo: Ok, Ok, I swear Lozzo, I’ll be your pitching coach if you manage the orioles.

    Narrator: The boys then prick their fingers with fishing hooks, rub the bloody tips together and chant, “In the name of Brooks Robinson, we will build a dynasty”. No fish were caught, the constant rocking scared the all away.

  162. 162
    kc Says:

    Or this is simply a message being delivered by the Braves that this organization will never match or bid against offers from the big market clubs. Anybody is replaceable within a well run organization. If the Yankees throw $6M at Bobby Cox, the Braves will let him go as well. If someone would like to stay with the Braves he must take discount like Hudson and Smoltz. There is always a budget and policies to follow and nothing can be deviated from that, and there is no one person which is more important than the processes and the system. This is pretty much the corporate culture in America.

    Ok, I get it now. We can forget about Furcal.

  163. 163
    Alex R. Says:

    KC-

    I wish it was a ‘bad blood’ thing between LM and JS, but have never heard anything about that. I really think it’s just AOL/TW being AOL/TW and BEING cheap as hell bastards–what a joke.

    Michael-

    Question…which Georgia newspaper does your brother work for? Mine works for the Macon telegraph…wonder if they know eachother!?

    As far as nice Leo vs. mean Leo, to be fair, I am not surprised that people would have good stories and bad stories. The only way to really know someone is to meet them yourself so it’s possible Leo can be both nice & mean…I know I certainly can.

    Either way, unless Leo had done something say racist, Anti Semitic, sexist, homophobic or anything awful like that, he can be mean if he wants and still be our pitching coach!!!

    So…Mac, et all…WHERE do we go from here in picking up the pieces? A pitching coach within the organization (like Mac mentioned last night) or a Mike Maddux?

    I like Ray Miller but his health seems to have knocked him out and though I respect overall the work Mel Stottlemyre did in New York (and he’s a very nice guy, I will add), I think he’s an average pitching coach.

    I suppose iether getting Mike Maddux or a guy within the organization is the best way to go at this point unless there’s another name out there I am not thinking of?

  164. 164
    Kirk Says:

    I have to agree with Kyle S that I don’t see the attraction for Stottlemyre. Seems pretty unlikely in any case. Much more likely that someone already in the organization gets a promotion, or someone with previous experience with the organization gets pulled back in. This would help ensure some continuity and that the person would be a good fit for the “Braves way”.

  165. 165
    JC Says:

    I don’t have much evidence other than Bobby and Leo seemed to act a little different this year with the media. Leo was much more vocal in criticizing the talent he had to work with. Bobby also seemed less excited about the kids than everyone else. Could have been something else, but combined with the rumors of Kasten and JS to Washington I think there may be some tension in the air. Bobby was once a GM, a good one, and he and JS may not be seeing eye-to-eye right now.

    The drafting of Joey Devine was also a bit odd for the Braves, and I’m not saying it was a mistake at all. It’s the kind of panic the Braves have not shown in the past.

    This is just a fan here, grasping for something. Keep that in mind. I mean, I thought AJ and TP didn’t get along, and then it turns out they live next door to each other. I’m prone to mistakes, but always willing to cop to them.

  166. 166
    kc Says:

    Is it Kent Willis who is the pitching coach at AA? I heard a lot of good things about him from a lot of sources. I do not believe the Braves will hire a “star” pitching coach. That person will either be a coach within the organization or a up-and-coming coach (who will accept what Leo has been making), like Price people have mentioned before?!

  167. 167
    snellville jones Says:

    It’s not the money, I’m sure of it. I’m afraid it’s just the right time for him. Compensation would be nice, but it looks to be wishful thinking. Such a loss… I don’t think the Braves are sunk because of it, but it hurts.

  168. 168
    sansho1 Says:

    I don’t believe the suits think there’s any appreciable difference between a pitching coach and a hitting coach, but in fact there’s no comparison. For every dollar a good batting coach makes (quick, name three great batting coaches), a Mazzone merits at least three.

  169. 169
    csg Says:

    Hey guys I havent been able to make any posts lately. Good to see everyone is getting along this morning. Can anyone give a list of possible replacements for Leo? Does anyone think Bobby might be on his way out? I know Pendleton has stopped all talks at this point…I wonder what he knows!

  170. 170
    David Remy Says:

    At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised if Eddie Perez was named pitching coach.

  171. 171
    Alex R. Says:

    Again, I keep reading all this talk about who gets along with whom, Leo being unhappy with the proganization, etc. etc.

    I really think this is much simpler and less ‘conspiracy’ then everyone thinks.

    Leo is from CUMBERLAND, MARYLAND WHERE HE GREW UP WITH ORIOLES MANAGER SAM PERLOZZO. Couple that with a 3 year guaranteed contract and more money.

    At the end of the day, this has nothing at all to do with any animosity that Leo has with the Braves all of a sudden. he got offered triple the money and triple the guarantee to go coach near his hometown on the bench sitting next to his best friend and he’s near his family. end of story.

  172. 172
    Stu Says:

    Alex, I disagree with you a lot, because I don’t think you think through very many of the wild statements you make. And, well, because of your hilarious use of all capital letters and the fact that you can’t write a single sentence without some sort of grammatical or spelling error.

    Disagreeing with you is not baiting. Nor is my quoting your post. That was pointing out an inconsistency, trying to avoid an escalation into an argument, which is apparently what you wanted.

    Mac, you need some objectivity, buddy, and not recognizing that Alex’s hostility is behind these little spats far more than is pointing out the inconsistencies of his posts, well, is kind of absurd. Call it both ways, man, because I don’t appreciate being singled out.

    And please, Alex, don’t bring up that you and Mac have been friends (PERSONAL friends OUTSIDE this forum) for 13 years, because I and everyone else here already knows, and I honestly couldn’t care less.

    Complete and utter irrelevance aside, though, that story about you and your dad is really touching. You should write a book.

  173. 173
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I’m not saying that it’s all baiting, Stu, but that comment clearly was. This is my last comment on that matter.

  174. 174
    doubledawg Says:

    Wrong Maddux. I think its time for the Maddog to hang up the spikes. He’s been the Professor for years now. Also, it seems more and more common that good MLB pitchers come back to be coaches. Orel, Righettie, even M. Maddux. Its not just the AAA washouts like Leo anymore. unfortunatley, Atlanta is still a long way from Las Vegas. I’d love to see Pendleton and Maddux on the bench. I’d feel 12 again.

  175. 175
    Kirk Says:

    We have no way to know what the inter-personal relationships between the key players in this drama are. Here is another perfectly plausible scenario: Leo: JS, you see where Sammy got the manager gig with the Orioles? I always said I wanted to work with him, and now’s my chance. JS: Leo, we love you here, how about we give you some more years and dollars? Leo: I appreciate it, but this is my dream and I’m going to go for it. You could do me a favor by keeping this conversation quiet so I can get as much as possible out of Angelos, though. JS: OK Leo, but we need something back from the Orioles to soften the blow, so let’s do this while you are still nominally under contract. Leo: OK, done.

  176. 176
    JC Says:

    Kirk,

    I hope you’re right.

  177. 177
    kc Says:

    Alex, I think it is the combination of everything we mentioned here which make the decision easy for Leo. The Braves are cheap, and this is a fact that Leo recognizes, but he is loyal to Bobby so he stays. At the same time, he would like to coach for his life-long buddy. Who knows? Maybe this will be Perlozzo’s only chance to manage, and Leo can’t turn away from this oppurtunity. JS and Bobby let Leo doing his own thing and thanks Leo for his loyalty for so many years. End of story.

    May I suggest Stu and Alex just ignore each other messages and move on?

  178. 178
    Alex R. Says:

    Stu,

    Have you read my last 3-4 comments in talking to sansho1, Michael, Kirk and others on here. Why is it that ONLY you say nasty things to me but everyone else on here can sit and have BRAVES discussions with me.

    That last remark you made about me & my father was pretty obviously snide. I won’t go into details as to what’s been happening with my father over the last year & a half, Mac knows, and you are a pretty nasty individual.

    If you at all have read any of my comments today, you will see me saying nice things about Glavine, talking about Leo and his situation with Perlozzo and the Braves…where’s is the mean spirit in all of that stuff?

    I am trying to be like everyone else on here and just talk Braves, good and bad.

    You keep singling me out and are making me sick at this point. And look at this last post? Not only do you make a vicious snide remark about my father & I meeting Glavine (completely uncalled for and have I ever made snide remarks towards your family? But you make remarks about my grammer…who the hell cares? I type extremely fast and I know I occasionally get a word wrong…so what? Others on here do also.

    I am really done this time. Honestly. I am trying, so extremely hard to talk Baseball, share a nice anecdote with everyone (not just for you) about Tommy Glavine and you have to ruin it every time.

    You are a mean spirited, nasty person and your ability to piss me off and say cruel and hurtful things is jaw dropping, Stu.

    You ruin being on Braves Journal for me like no one else.

    I have so many people on here from Mac to JoeyT to jenny to sansho1 to Kirk et all who entertain me and I enjoy speaking with. You continue to feel the need to be the one horrible person, to me, for NO GOOD REASON. Your personal attacks and general cruelty aimed at my direction hurt and get to me…you know it does and its why you continue to do this.

    I ask anyone else on here whp’s erad my posts saying nice things about Glavine and what a great pitching coach Leo Mazzone was and please, ANYONE BUT STU, tell me what’s so terrible about anything I have said that I cotinue to have to endure your mean spirited attacks on me and now my father.

    Attacking my dad is too much to bear. It’s really no long fun being on here and I don’t think I will ever understand why you say the things you are saying to me when I am going out of my way not to provoke but to discuss and even share a sweet anecdote from 1995.

  179. 179
    'Rissa Says:

    The Braves MLB page says they won’t get into a betting war, and if Leo returns it would be for the agreed upon amount between Leo and JS. So, he’s obviously gone.

    The first baseball games I ever watched were the ’95 World Series. My Dad said, “Oh look, the Braves are playing. When I went to graduate school I lived with a family who were Braves fans. I hope they win.” From that day on I’ve been hooked. I watched the playoffs in ’96 and started watching regular season games when I was finally able to get TBS, so, for me, I’ve never seen a Braves game without Leo and Bobby sitting there in the dugout together (except, of course, all those times Bobby got tossed). It will definitely be wierd next season. I will also miss hearing about Camp Leo and reading all of those articles that pop up around that time about how great a coach Leo is. I wonder what Smoltz will do this February

    I’ll miss Leo but am very grateful for all he’s done for Atlanta. I do wish him the best in Baltimore.

  180. 180
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Okay, let’s just stop talking about anything personal, okay? Everyone, just take a deep breath.

  181. 181
    unonnymus Says:

    i thenk we shuld hier danny kolb 2B the piching coche. he noes lots abowt piching.

  182. 182
    Smitty Says:

    I still think it is the orgainizations theory on pitching and we will hire the guy from AA or soomeone else from in the system.

    I’ll be back I have to return a phone call, it is someone from AOL/Time Warner about a job opening.

  183. 183
    Smitty Says:

    Guys all of this fighting isn’t going to bring back Leo or Furcal, but it might bring back Kolb or CLerence Jones, so be careful!

  184. 184
    sansho1 Says:

    Don’t forget to ask about stock options, Smitty!

  185. 185
    Marc Says:

    As cheap as TW is, I can’t believe this is an issue of a couple hundred thousand dollars. There has to be more here that we don’t know. Either there is some problem that has been kept under wraps or Leo wants to leave. I can’t believe TW would care if they spent a litte more to keep Leo. It’s not like it’s millions of dollars. JS doesn’t sound like he cares too much if Leo leaves.

    As for the Baltimore-Atlanta things, it’s obviously a matter of preference. I grew up near Atlanta and spent a lot of time there and now live in Washington. Baltimore is a nice place at least to visit–saying that it’s dirty and has a lot of crime is simply saying that it’s a typical Northeastern city where people actually live in the city rather than deserting to the suburbs like Atlanta. Atlanta is a typical sunbelt city with thriving, attractive suburbs, but with little urban culture. Atlanta is, I’m sure, a nice place to live, but I don’t think people actually visit Atlanta as they would New York, Philadelphia, Washington or even, to a lesser extent, Baltimore, all of which have much more history and a much more vibrant (if dirty) urban environment.

  186. 186
    Smitty Says:

    Oh no, I won’t work for their stock options. If they are not good enough for Ted, then they aren’t good enough for me.

  187. 187
    CJ Says:

    Out of curiosity, when Perlozzo gets fired by the hotheaded Angelos, what will be Leo’s fate then. It would not surprise me if he were welcomed back into the fold. I just can’t imagine any one manager holding onto that gig for more than two years.

  188. 188
    jenny Says:

    NOTE TO PEOPLE: THERE IS NO FRONT OFFICE CONSPIRACY.

    If Leo is leaving Atlanta because of problems with the front office, why the hell would he go to BALTIMORE to fix it? Their problems are fifty times worse and Peter Angelos is more stupid and meddlesome than anybody the Braves could throw out there. That is not the reason. They are disorganized, slow, inefficient, and obnoxious. He is not leaving because of the front office.

    Alex R, I know how you feel about the Orioles, but can you PLEASE stop hating on the city? I don’t like it much either, but it is my state, and I get annoyed.

    And can we all stop fighting? It reads like a kindergarten classroom in here. Just getting up this morning and reading it put me in a bad mood!
    ;-)

  189. 189
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Tell you what… Alex, tell us how you feel about Tampa. (There’s nobody here from Tampa, is there?)

  190. 190
    Alex R. Says:

    Jenny,

    I just wanted to briefly come back on to apologize to you about the Baltimore thing. That’s it, for me in here but you deserved that much.

    Please let me say to you and others that what Stu and I are doing is not fighting…he has taken personal attacks on me and I have defended myself. This is no way equal.

    End of subject.

  191. 191
    ermoore Says:

    Alex R., in the words of Neil Young, don’t let it bring you down. I dig all your posts, even the ones I think are somewhat less-well thought-out. It’s cool to see a Braves fan so upset it carries through to their typing and I am a big fan of excessive cursing, but criminey, don’t let these little buggers get to you. Ignore ‘em. The that have a real problem with you (or anyone else here) just don’t come back. It’s just the troublemakers that stick around to annoy and sow strife.

    Anyways, if Leo goes, do yall think we’ll see a decline in pitching next year or will his “residue” stick around for a year or two before the inevitable fall?
    I sure would like to see us with a Maddux (honestly, either Maddux) as our pitching coach. Or the ghost of Sain . . .
    Also, I really hope Bobby and Leo both do great next year so that neither’s successes the past decade will be attributed to the other.

  192. 192
    ububba Says:

    I love Atlanta & can’t stand its suburbs. The city of Atlanta has flavor & personality, artists & open-minded people; its suburbs are full of the folks I met & decided not to mix with while at UGA (for a variety of long-standing social reasons particular to the area). In-town sections like East Atlanta, Inman Park, Virginia-Highland, etc., have history and a vitality not shared by most of those concrete suburbs.

    I actually like Baltimore as well. I go there every summer & really enjoy it. I like its clubs, bars & restaurants. Its Little Italy is cool, Fells Point, those seafood joints are amazing, they have real BBQ (which you can’t get in NYC). And for those who haven’t been, the Baltimore baseball experience is terrific.

    For what it’s worth: Stu & Alex, your contributions are extremely appreciated, and your abilities to piss each other off are kinda remarkable. (Radio, I’m telling you…)

    Conflict, by nature, is often very entertaining, but, for the sake of others, let’s try to play nice. Otherwise, we’ll have to organize a pay-per-view.

  193. 193
    Smitty Says:

    The O’s also brought in Jim Duquette and the Washington Post says it is not a done deal as of yet. There is some small hope still, but I think it is about as small as an ant next to an elephant.

  194. 194
    Rufino Linares Says:

    As far as Balmer goes, I used to live there- had a townhouse on Federal Hill- and I really liked it. Yeah, there are some crummy parts of town- and those parts are mixed in close proximity with the non-crummy parts- but you find that in lots of places. The inner harbor area was decent if touristy, Fells Point was very cool, and there were some up-and-coming areas that promised to bring some diversity to the place. My personal favorite establishment was the Greene Turtle; it was sort of a hole in the wall, and it occasionally got overfull with Towson kids, but that was (and I guess still is) a kickass bar.

  195. 195
    Kevin Lee Says:

    Before LeoWatch began:
    Mac’s adept analysis of our division foes mentioned the monumental task the Natspos have in rebuilding a farm system. I thought about this for a long while. With alll of the GM jobs floating around it’s clear that decisions made this year can a system for ten years. I wish jenny could appreciate how awesome that Baltimore organization was in the 60′s and 70′s.

    I also wonder how much influence the big club’s pitching coach has on the system. I really don’t know. I’ve been thinking that JS’s biggest job may be picking his own eventual successor. But this one sounds big, too.

    Their breaking up that ole’ gang o’ mine. Here’s to the new boss (same as the old boss).

  196. 196
    Smitty Says:

    Any city in the state of Florida sucks. If Florida was a land locked state, more people would go to the Dakotas than to Florida.

    How is Bama going to do this week against my Vols, Mac? I am really worried.

  197. 197
    Smitty Says:

    Kevin, I hope we don’t get fooled again!

  198. 198
    doubledawg Says:

    Who’s worried about Bama? Their hopes snapped a few weeks ago, pun intended. Bama has their toughest teams ahead of them and it takes a star receiver to make a QB our of Brody. LSU/Auburn will decide the West. My money’s on Auburn.

  199. 199
    jenny Says:

    Thanks, Alex, and I concur with ububba: You’d be great on your own talk show.

    I have been told, Kevin, how great the Orioles have been in the 1960s and 1970s, and that’s a lot of the reason the fans are hurting so much now. Unfortunately, being born 4 years after their last World Series, I can’t say I remember it too well…

  200. 200
    ububba Says:

    doubledawg,

    You’re brutal, dude.

    To Dawgfans: Anybody notice that Tech’s game with Miami got moved to Nov. 19? That was Tech’s pre-UGA bye week. Pity.

  201. 201
    csg Says:

    When will the MVP for this year be announced and also when do trade talks begin?

    Doubledawg, Bama will handle Tennessee a lot better than Auburn will w/ LSU! I hope

  202. 202
    Lance Says:

    Hey Smitty, not EVERYTHING about Florida sucks, I Live Here!!!! Our Baseball teams suck, 50/50 on our college and pro football, and basketball, well, I am a Magic fan, so go figure. However, one nice thing about where I live, on the way to work everyday I pass the ” Chipper Jones Little League Complex “….oh, and Chipper and I are from the same town, so thats two good things from Florida

  203. 203
    CTom Says:

    Well, 14 straight was an allright run. It was fun while it lasted. It had to end sometime.

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