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30 Jul

Teixeira + other trade possibilities open thread

I saw Barry in San Francisco, and he struck out, and he grounded out, and he doubled, and then he…

195 Responses to “Teixeira + other trade possibilities open thread”

  1. 1
    Another Alex R. Says:

    This is a reply to Stu from the previous thread. While it’s always possible that Kyle Davies will develop into a good starter, odds are that he’ll haunt us a lot more while playing FOR us than playing against us.

  2. 2
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Teixeira’s most-similar through age 26:

    1. Fred McGriff (934)
    2. Paul Konerko (933)
    3. Mark McGwire (920)
    4. Kent Hrbek (918)
    5. Will Clark (916)
    6. Jeff Bagwell (913)
    7. Rocky Colavito (913)
    8. Willie McCovey (911) *
    9. Richie Sexson (911)
    10. Don Hurst (910)

  3. 3
    'Rissa Says:

    Ledezma delenda est worked, so now it needs to be Woodward.

    If we get Dotel after we’ve already gotten Mahay, who else in the bullpen leaves? Yates and Soriano have been struggling the most, but Soriano isn’t going anywhere and Yates was so good in June that I don’t see them doing anything to him yet. Everyone else has been pretty good lately, though, so who’s the odd man out?

  4. 4
    mraver Says:

    Ahaha. That’s awsome, Mac.

  5. 5
    Jeremy Says:

    What a day.

  6. 6
    BX Says:

    I don’t necessarily want him gone but I would think Paronto might be the odd man out.

  7. 7
    Hawkmoon Says:

    This is a ok deal IF we don’t resign Teixeira AND Salty becomes an All-Star.

    This is a good deal IF we sign Teixeira to a long term deal.

    IF we win the World Series this year or next whether we resign Tex or not this is a damn great trade.

  8. 8
    njbravesfan Says:

    Big rumors that Braves are openly going after Bronson Arroyo now, that would be huge as well, but what would they have to give up?! probably jones and thorman as well as a reliever like devine?

  9. 9
    Coz Says:

    That’s just creepy, Mac. It’s almost like a sign. :) Maybe somebody will set fire to the press box.

  10. 10
    Dan Says:

    Teixeira, Dotel and Arroyo?

  11. 11
    Hawkmoon Says:

    I hope JS isn’t done. If you’re going to go for it, then do it and not be half-assed about it! Bring on Dotel and/or Arroyo.

  12. 12
    Mac Thomason Says:

    New poll.

  13. 13
    Nick Says:

    I’m guessing they don’t do both Arroyo and Dotel, but you never know. This has been one crazy-ass day.

  14. 14
    Nick Says:

    I went with 4 on the poll BTW, but I reserve the right to turn that into a 5 at the end of the year.

  15. 15
    JoeyT Says:

    Dotel’s coming from so many sources in one form or another, I think it’s likely. The sources disagree on whom the Braves are giving up, though.

  16. 16
    drewdat Says:

    Yates should go at this point, or at least on the DL. Paronto has been useful, Yates has shattered over the past month or so.

  17. 17
    mraver Says:

    If nothing else, I think today shows that the payroll is definitely going up.

    Awsome.

    As for the ‘pen, I’d like to see Yates take a month off and then come up for September and fight it out for the last spot on the post-season roster. Paronto has been a lot better lately and has less wear on the arm, but if Yates can come back rejuvinated , I’d prefer his arm come playoff time.

  18. 18
    Parish Says:

    Question on the McGriff reference: Wasn’t Donnie Elliot highly regarded too? I don’t think Nieves was the only “legit” prospect.

  19. 19
    JoeyT Says:

    Good job bringing up the McGriff trade, Mac. This looks very similar, only Tex is a couple of years younger.

  20. 20
    ububba Says:

    DOB with Chris “Mad Dog” Russo on WFAN in NYC from earlier today. Go to “Insant Replay” on the left side of the page.

    http://www.wfan.com

  21. 21
    King Diamond Says:

    Seriously, does anyone here ever want to see Davies pitch again in a Braves uniform? I sure as hell don’t. Getting Dotel for him seems like a steal, especially since Dotel is covered through 2008 via option.

  22. 22
    Jeff K Says:

    I think the 2008 option is Dotel’s to exercise.

  23. 23
    drewdat Says:

    Hard for me to see a 5. I suspect Teixeira is no Fred McGriff, and surely our quadrumvirate is no Melvin Nieves and Donnie Elliott.

    I feel comfortable with 2. Not a 1, at least we’re assured of getting a useful player back. Playoffs are still no more likely than not mathematically, so I don’t see a ton of use in discussing playoff scenarios.

    I feel charitable. 2 1/2.

  24. 24
    Nick Says:

    Which means he’s probably gone unless we give him the closer job, which we’re not likely to do.

  25. 25
    Parish Says:

    I went 2.

    We got a great player. We spent more than we should have. Definitely, less than neutral on the deal at this point.

  26. 26
    Nick Says:

    I’m actually dumbfounded at how many people don’t like this deal. I’ve decided it’s not possible to make a major deal that a significant portion of the people on Braves Journal don’t initially hate.

  27. 27
    Robert Says:

    I went 2. And now we are staring down Dotel-Davies.

    I heard that WWF just placed ‘Braves Prospect’ on their endangered species list.

  28. 28
    Stu Says:

    I’m vomiting in the ocean over the alleged Davies-for-Dotel trade.

    And who in the world would be left on the farm if we got Arroyo? Is JS’s plan to have Li’l Jonny appear on our Top 10 Prospects lists before he retires?

  29. 29
    ububba Says:

    I vote 4.

    I’m optimistic.

  30. 30
    ububba Says:

    Stu,

    Why do you like Davies? What have you seen from him that makes you believe he’s worth keeping?

  31. 31
    Robert Says:

    Is JS’s plan to have Li’l Jonny appear on our Top 10 Prospects lists before he retires?

    Obviously he wants one more go at the big prize before he retires, but this is crossing into being irresponsible to the future of the franchise.

  32. 32
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I’d take a bag of half-used mustard packets for Davies. I can’t believe anyone is against any Davies trade unless it was for Reitsma or Kolb.

    Elliot was probably the Braves’ best pitching prospect at the time, but he was a B prospect for a team that had a starting rotation of Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz-Avery.

  33. 33
    JoeyT Says:

    I put 5. The deal is fantastic.

    If the Dotel deal is for Davies, I’m not as excited. I’d put a 3 on that one.

  34. 34
    Jeff K Says:

    I polled it a 4, in part because I try to value trades based on what is known (or at least what I know) at the time the trade is made, not with hindsight. The McGriff trade was a very good trade at the time, not just because the Braves ended up not giving up much. The relevant points on the Tex trade have been made in the prior thread. Measured without context, the Rangers got several good players. Measured with context, the Braves traded players for whom they cannot find a spot.

  35. 35
    Nick Says:

    I’m sorry, but Kyle Davies is not a prospect. You may like him, and that’s fine. But he is not a farm system prospect anymore when he’s been a Major League pitcher for three years. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the farm system, as far as I’m concerned.

    And for the record, I still don’t understand why this wouldn’t be a good deal.

  36. 36
    Jeff K Says:

    Mac, what did you vote on the poll?

  37. 37
    Murphy3Ever Says:

    love the tex deal

    not so much for dotel. his arm will fall off and/or he’ll be gone at the end of the year. isn’t it worth stashing davies in richmond for a while to see if he can pull it together?

  38. 38
    Dan Says:

    Yeah, I fear more bad starts from Davies with the Braves than good starts from Davies with the Royals.

  39. 39
    Stu Says:

    Davies has middle-of-the-rotation upside, ububba et al. He’s an inconsistent headcase right now, for sure, but I don’t like giving up young, cheap starters with good stuff for old, seriously injury-prone, expensive relievers.

    Just sort of a policy of mine. I vote 3 on the Teixeira trade, 1.5 on Dotel if it’s for Davies.

  40. 40
    Parish Says:

    Stu, while I agree that we way overpaid for Tex, I have to disagree on Davies-Dotel. I just don’t see how we will ever really get anything out of Davies on the roster and I think his value diminishes as time goes on.

  41. 41
    Nick Says:

    Who gives a shit if his arm falls off and he’s gone at the end of the year? We’re just getting him for one year anyway.

    I really don’t get the sudden love for Kyle Davies. I might not go as far as Mac (with the used mustard packets), but this is a guy who’s had numerous chances. You have to be starting to wonder if he’ll be any good. And even if he is, what’s his ceiling? A No. 3 starter? Don’t we already have like three of those already? As I said, 25% of the people on this site will automatically piss all over any trade no matter what it is.

  42. 42
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I generally don’t vote in the polls. I probably would have put 4. Assuming Hanson isn’t part of the deal, there’s nobody involved I saw as a serious contributor for the Braves in the near future.

    As for Saltalamacchia, I keep thinking of what happened to the Padres when they came up with Benito Santiago and Sandy Alomar Jr. at the same time. They kept messing around with Alomar, burying him in the minors when he was clearly ready for the Show, and he lost a lot of his trade value. They got Joe Carter in a trade for him, eventually — but also had to give up Carlos Baerga in that deal. Then again, they had Robby Alomar and Bip Roberts so there wasn’t really a spot for Baerga. Weird team.

  43. 43
    Robert Says:

    Good points all. He’s 24, there is no way he could improve, and plus we’ve got all these other pitching prospects lined up in the system…

  44. 44
    Parish Says:

    I should mention that I would rather us get Dotel for Thorman than for Davies.

  45. 45
    Murphy3Ever Says:

    41 — would you care if his arm falls off next week? the guy’s pitched 20 some odd innings in two years and hasn’t exactly been untouchable. there’s inherent risk in adding him while giving up any asset at all.

    davies has sucked this year. obviously. but it’d be an extreme sell-low situation.

  46. 46
    ububba Says:

    I guess I just don’t see any upside for Davies anymore & I’d package him for something useful, even if it’s short-term. I’d prefer a starter, but I’m guessing JS is exploring/has explored that, too.

    If we get Dotel, I have a feeling that within weeks we’ll hear the call for him to replace Wickman as closer. In fact, that’ll happen the very next time Wickman coughs up another game.

    As I’ve mentioned, I cannot imagine a day when I’m pining for Kyle Davies.

  47. 47
    Nick Says:

    I guess you just have to ask yourself the question, then. Does Kyle Davies=any asset at all?

  48. 48
    mraver Says:

    If you wonder why people question giving up Davies, just look at the issues we’ve had at the back of the rotation (granted, Davies was the source of some of these issues). Giving up cheap options at SP can be bad.

    But I think we’ll have a lot of options for next year, especially if Hampton comes back and/or we re-sign Carlyle.

  49. 49
    njbravesfan Says:

    mlbtraderumors suggests that we might be willing to part with jo jo reyes and or yunel escobar for bronson arroyo ,that scares me

  50. 50
    JoeyT Says:

    Seattle PI confirms Dotel for Davies.

    http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/archives/119073.asp

  51. 51
    mraver Says:

    Which is to say, I don’t mind a Davies-for-Dotel swap.

  52. 52
    Rufino Linares Says:

    With Salty, since he wasn’t going to catch for us, he had to go. I guess he might hit enough to contribute at first base (versus the league average, not versus who the Braves ran out there so far this year) but he might now, and defensively he has a long way to go. The time was now. Of course, I just read Mac’s post and this repeats, less eloquently, what he was saying. Oops.

  53. 53
    beedee Says:

    never count your hamptons before they pitch

  54. 54
    Nick Says:

    Well, I would just as soon get rid of Escobar since I’m deathly afraid that we’re gonna get rid of Renteria for him, so that doesn’t bother me too much. Lillibridge has gotta be better than Escobar anyway.

    And adding Arroyo would offset the loss of Reyes, so I’d be cool with that, I think.

  55. 55
    Nick Says:

    LOL…nice, beedee

  56. 56
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Either Dayton Moore is stupid, or he is unnecessarily sentimental, or he really thinks he has a handle on how to fix Davies. Or some combination thereof. Reports are that the Mariners offered Wladimir Balentien for Dotel. Balentien is tearing up the PCL. Oh, and he’s from Andruw’s hometown, though that’s pretty meaningless.

  57. 57
    Jeff K Says:

    I’m no fan of Davies, although it a little early to tell. But, the Braves need SPs and don’t really need righty setup guys. Three years (I think the Braves still control him for 3 years) of a young SP with MLB experience vs. 1 year of a righty setup guy seems like not much of a deal. It seems like we could get more for Davies. Maybe there’s a second player from the Royals we’ve not heard about.

  58. 58
    Coz Says:

    Davies does have some asset in that other GM’s may value him. It’s not so much a question of “should we get rid of the guy” as much as it is “what should/could we get back for him?” It’s hard to think he’ll ever have a worse trade value, but I don’t know that he’ll ever be good enough for us to have any more of one. Yes, get rid of him. But get as much as you can.

  59. 59
    Stu Says:

    I’d be fine with Yunel and Jo-Jo for Arroyo. Would be very pleased with it, actually.

    And for the record, I’d love to be wrong about the relative values of Dotel and Davies. I just don’t think it’s indicative of a wise philosophy.

  60. 60
    JC Says:

    Kyle Elfrink of ESPN-1580 Columbia,MO. is reporting the Davies-Dotel is pretty much done.

  61. 61
    RobBroad4th Says:

    To get Teixeira we sold the farm
    E-I E-I spells Teixeira.

  62. 62
    Coz Says:

    Jeff K – Right on. Use Davies to get a starter (unless of course, some moron is willing to give you a decent #3 starter for Scott Thorman.)

  63. 63
    drewdat Says:

    “mlbtraderumors suggests that we might be willing to part with jo jo reyes and or yunel escobar for bronson arroyo ,that scares me”

    I’m perfectly fine with that. Good time to trade Escobar (wish I could say the same for Davies, Andrus, Harrison, or Feliz). Arroyo would not be a rental. Looks OK.

    And since we have already mortgaged the post-JS era to some extent, I would argue that a trade for a starter is essential. It was anyways, but now, if he doesn’t, I think he’s killing this season and hurting future seasons to boot.

  64. 64
    Nick Says:

    Right, but here’s the thing. For us to be able to get anything more for Davies we’re gonna have to call him up and have him pitch again to show that he isn’t, you know, the worst pitcher of all-time. The fact that anyone is willing to give us anything for him other than a PTBNL is astounding to me. Why wouldn’t you just do that deal and then be done with that festering mess?

  65. 65
    ububba Says:

    Bronson Arroyo…interesting.

    Having a not-so-great year, but I’m pretty sure he’d be OK in Turner Field.

    Home: 2-3, 59 IP, 5.19 ERA
    Away: 2-8, 80 IP, 3.70 ERA

    I saw him pitch a lot for the Sawx against the Yankees & always thought he was tough-minded and much grittier than his surfer-boy persona. Was surprised Boston traded him.

  66. 66
    Jeremy Says:

    Put me in the camp that says good riddance to Davies. I’ve always felt his “stuff” has been overstated. He may turn out to be like Jason Marquis, a league average guy who can eat innings, but like Marquis, that’s not going to happen with the Braves. That ship has sailed and I’m fine with it.

  67. 67
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Why trade Davies for someone who can’t start? It’s not addition by subtraction here.

  68. 68
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Oh man, you guys, PLEASE check out http://www.bronsonarroyo.com/

  69. 69
    JoeyT Says:

    mlbtraderumors was speculating because they have no idea whomelse the Braves could offer for Arroyo.

    I can’t imagine the interest is serious anymore. Maybe before the Tex deal. Who’s left to deal?

  70. 70
    Coz Says:

    Prior to these moves, I was not a fan of picking up Arroyo. But it is clear the Braves are willing to take on salary and if the price is Escobar and Reyes, I’ll accept it. As has been mentioned, we’ve already sold a good portion of the farm.

    And if that deal is made, let’s take the money and run on Davies for Dotel.

    Let’s make it a full on run!

  71. 71
    Dan Says:

    Davies is arbitration eligible soon isn’t he?

    Is there anyone here craving more Davies’ starts?

  72. 72
    Mac Thomason Says:

    We kinda need relief help, Rob.

    Only 20 pitchers have a worse career ERA, min. 100 innings, ages 23 and younger, than Davies’ 6.15:

    CAREER

    AGE < 24

    ERA ERA
    1 John McDougal 8.32
    2 Cal McLish 7.73
    3 Carl Doyle 7.56
    4 Mike Johnson 7.52
    5 Chauncey Fisher 7.43
    6 C.J. Nitkowski 7.21
    7 Jake Boyd 7.20
    8 Al Maul 7.13
    9 Colby Lewis 7.08
    10 Jimmy Haynes 7.01
    11 Hector Fajardo 6.83
    12 Jose Parra 6.59
    13 Eddie Guardado 6.53
    14 Bill Kissinger 6.51
    15 Dick Welteroth 6.51
    16 Jim Waugh 6.46
    17 Tom Colcolough 6.41
    18 Chris George 6.32
    19 Jose Lima 6.24
    20 Jack Bracken 6.21

    So maybe he grows up to be Jose Lima.

  73. 73
    Jeremy Says:

    [i]Why trade Davies for someone who can’t start? It’s not addition by subtraction here.[/i]

    Davies can’t start either.

  74. 74
    JoeyT Says:

    #13 Guardado ended up being pretty good for a long time.

  75. 75
    RobBroad4th Says:

    He’s still (well, was) young, cheap, and fully capable of overcoming what many scouts believed to be confidence issues as opposed to stuff issues. I hope I’m wrong.

  76. 76
    Coz Says:

    @71 – No. No more starts.

  77. 77
    Cary Says:

    Hallefuckinlujia!
    ———
    The Royals appear ready to trade Dotel to the Braves for Kyle Davies, the Kansas City Star reports.
    ———

    No more Davies. No more Davies. I can not stand Davies. Thanks for jumping off that tanking arm, JS.

    Dotel has rocked this year. He and Mahay should be able to give Yates a breather and help get the game to Soriano and Wickman.

    There were no starters worth a damn on the market, so we did the next best thing and rebuilt the ‘pen. Nice.

  78. 78
    RobBroad4th Says:

    When I last saw the rumor, we were trading Thorman for Dotel, so naturally I’m a little disappointed that’s not the case.

  79. 79
    Cary Says:

    Or Hallefuckinlujah!

    Davies is a dirty tease. Go far away. And it may work out better for him too, who knows?

  80. 80
    braves14 Says:

    I’m not voting on the poll until we’re absolutely sure which TNSTAAPPs we gave up.

  81. 81
    drewdat Says:

    “Dotel has rocked this year.”

    Really? Improvement to our bullpen to be sure, but that says more about our bullpen IMO.

    Lots of K’s, I guess. Easily offset by the walk every other inning and HR every 7, I’d say, but he’s probably underperforming.

  82. 82
    Jeff K Says:

    Mac, I don’t have the wherewithal, can you produce similar data using ERA+? I think most of us agree that ERA unadjusted is a poor tool for comparison.

  83. 83
    njbravesfan Says:

    Bottom Line is, if your gonna mortgage the future, then do it to the fullest.

    If you add Dotel and Arroyo, you have to think your the favorite in the east even down 4.5 games.

    You rotation looks like

    Smoltz – Hudson -Arroyo – James – Carlyle

    Your lineup

    Johnson
    Renteria
    Jones
    Texiera
    Jones
    McCann
    Francouer
    Diaz/Harris
    Pitcher

    Bench
    Franco, Thorman, Harris/Diaz, Pena

    Pen
    Wickman
    Dotel
    Soriano
    Mahay
    Moylan
    Yates
    Paronto

    Thats a good team, we can win this year and next!

  84. 84
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Wow, its crazy to see that new lineup, nj. Tuesday night should be fun to watch.

  85. 85
    Rufino Linares Says:

    What is the word on Mike Gonzales anyway? How is his rehab going? Is he going to be ready for next year?

  86. 86
    Coz Says:

    I agree @83 – that looks like a team built to win. Certainly one capable of challenging not just the Mets but any team in baseball.

  87. 87
    Coz Says:

    Of course, they all have to perform up to expectations…

  88. 88
    Dan Says:

    Sorry njbravesfan, Harris will still be leading off because, well…..he’s fast?

  89. 89
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Did you trade Escobar and Reyes, nj?

  90. 90
    Mac Thomason Says:

    The Sabermetric Encyclopedia doesn’t do ERA+, but I can compare to the league:

    CAREER

    AGE < 24
    ERA vs. the league average displayed only–not a sorting criteria

    ERA ERA ERA
    1 John McDougal 8.32 -3.54
    2 Cal McLish 7.73 -4.01
    3 Carl Doyle 7.56 -2.92
    4 Mike Johnson 7.52 -3.14
    5 Chauncey Fisher 7.43 -2.21
    6 C.J. Nitkowski 7.21 -2.53
    7 Jake Boyd 7.20 -2.44
    8 Al Maul 7.13 -3.34
    9 Colby Lewis 7.08 -2.57
    10 Jimmy Haynes 7.01 -2.07
    11 Hector Fajardo 6.83 -2.22
    12 Jose Parra 6.59 -1.77
    13 Eddie Guardado 6.53 -2.12
    14 Bill Kissinger 6.51 -1.74
    15 Dick Welteroth 6.51 -2.26
    16 Jim Waugh 6.46 -2.38
    17 Tom Colcolough 6.41 -1.24
    18 Chris George 6.32 -1.82
    19 Jose Lima 6.24 -1.38
    20 Jack Bracken 6.21 -2.55

    Davies is about 1.80 worse than the league.

  91. 91
    Coz Says:

    The only downside to your team, nj, is that it leaves room for Woodward. :(

  92. 92
    mraver Says:

    Man. This team is very exciting allofasudden. The minors less so, but hey, that’s okay. And for next year, I think all we’ll need to do is add a CF:

    C- BMac, Pena
    1B- Teix, Thorman/Franco
    2B- KJ
    SS- Renteria, Escobar, Lillibridge
    3B- Chipper
    LF- Diaz, Brandon Jones/Thorman
    CF- some FA
    RF- Frenchy

    SP- Smoltz, Huddy, C. James, 2 of Hampton/JoJo/Carlyle/’Fredo/Cormier/FA?
    RP- Soriano, Gonzo, Moylan, Yates, Startup, Devine, Villareal (or substitute a FA for one or two of these guys)

    Looks nice to me, and that’s only 1-3 FAs.

    But maybe I’m getting ahead of myself?

  93. 93
    Coz Says:

    No, good job mraver…you reminded me that Villareal goes on the team nj put together instead of Woodward. ;)

  94. 94
    braves14 Says:

    We still have plenty of prospects. Just more of them now in the lower levels.

  95. 95
    Mr Swings @ Everything Says:

    We should just not have a farm system. Think about how much money we could save and then pour into the MLB roster. It’s frickin’ genius! Then we could just trade $$$ for Johan Santana and Alex Rodriguez.

  96. 96
    blake Says:

    id think that if brandon jones cant play center next year, frenchy will with brandon in right, rather than spending money on an FA.

    also, i doubt they’d give up escobar now only if because it leaves them thin if anything happens to renteria/jones/johnson this year, hurting any chance of a run. you could make a case that an injkury to the first two would finish us anyway, but with a serviceable escobar hitting 8th we’d still have a chance. realistically, i think we may be able to get arroyo for jo-jo, thorman, and another prospect preferably a low-level one, but maybe not.

  97. 97
    ububba Says:

    More Tex talk from the AJC:

    http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/sportscolumns/entries/2007/07/30/teixeira_gives.html

  98. 98
    Coz Says:

    If you could somehow swing Salty, Davies, Escobar, Reyes, Andrus and prospects for Santana and Rodriguez, wouldn’t you do it? Of course you would.

    But of course, we can’t. So we do the next best thing. Prospects will come along as they do every year. The minor leagues are not barren. And we have a legit chance to win this year AND next depending on how the Andruw situation plays out (and the payroll which from the looks of it will be going up.)

    I, for one, am excited about the stretch run. That’s all I ask for as a Braves fan. Given their record, I have some triumphs and let downs in front of me. But I truly appreciate the effort the guys at Turner Field are putting into the team. Let’s hope it continues.

  99. 99
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Checking the referrer logs, Ranger fans are apparently tickled by the Saltalamacchia/high school teacher thing.

  100. 100
    drewdat Says:

    #92,

    I like the ’08 roster. A positive, I guess. Weak SP’s IMO, needs a move or three.

    Sure wish we could have fielded a 1B the first part of this year, though

  101. 101
    chris Says:

    ok fellas…we are NOT losing in the farm

    remember our draft picks? heward WILL be a stud in 4 years and Johnson will be a serviceable LF capable of giving us .275-18-75 with around 20 SBs…

    is this a testament to JS’s faith in our past two drafts????

    our upper minors is depleted, but the lower minors is not…Hanson and the M—– kid who has been lights out…remember, JS has NEVER been shy about moving from AA to majors…upper minors depth is a myth

    good DEVELOPMENT is the key…

  102. 102
    Mac Thomason Says:

    And today is the highest traffic day on the new version of the site, though nothing compared to the post-Marte influx of Red Sox fans.

  103. 103
    Coz Says:

    Mac – ain’t it about time you changed it back to Woodward delenda est? ;)

  104. 104
    Robert Says:

    If we get Dotel and Arroyo, we are obviously ‘all in’ at that point. Perhaps, JS and Bobby have determined that this will be their last, best chance to get another ring and ride off into the sunset. With the departure of Andruw and the expected fades of Chipper and Smoltz, I can certainly understand that conclusion.

  105. 105
    Ethan Says:

    Another point is that Davies is arbitration eligible next season.

  106. 106
    ububba Says:

    Robert,

    That’s what Dave O’Brien was talking about on the radio today: This is it.

  107. 107
    ububba Says:

    And now I’m going to swing my local Irish pub, fully populated by Mets fans. Guess I’ll have to take their temperature & see what they’re thinking.

  108. 108
    drewdat Says:

    Hate the trade a little less right now, unless we inexplicably fail to acquire a #3 starter.

    That said, this prospect list from Baseball Prospectus is pretty funny/sad:

    Very Good Prospects
    1. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, C
    2. Matt Harrison, LHP
    Good Prospects
    3. Neftali Feliz, RHP
    4. Eric Campbell, 3B/2B
    5. Elvis Andrus, SS

    I want to say therein lies the difference between the Tex and Crime Dog deals? We still had Klesko and Javy and Chipper the first go round (and were a better team).

    But who knows, it may be nothing (it’s just insured in triplicate against it being nothing, heh). Our farm system is a touch overrated anyways.

  109. 109
    JoeyT Says:

    Do we know Harrison is the last person in that trade? I mean the waiting for reviewing medical records or whatever makes it sound like it’s Harrison, but do we have a source for that?

  110. 110
    Alex R. Says:

    Look, good riddance to freaking Kyle Davies. Were we all watching the same pitching? he had no balls out there and got his ass kicked. End of story. The fact that we could get anything eyond a bag of rocks, is truly amazing.

    Arroyo would definitely be the cherry on the Sunday.

    By the way, I promise all the worriers that we will still have a very deep farm system. We have been well stocked.

  111. 111
    Alex R. Says:

    I meant Sundae.

  112. 112
    braves14 Says:

    Yes, she is plenty stocked.

  113. 113
    JoeyT Says:

    Nevermind, found a source:

    http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2007/07/30/trade_0730.html

  114. 114
    braves14 Says:

    I posted this in the last thread. I made it up.

    Fun New top 10 prospect list?

    1. Tommy Hanson
    2. Brandon Jones
    3. Kala Kaaihue
    4. Joey Devine
    5. Jamie Richmond
    6. Dan Smith
    7. Cody Johnson
    8. Cole Rahrbaugh
    9. Eric Campbell
    10. Will Startup

    I forgot Lillibridge. Put him at about 4th.

  115. 115
    braves14 Says:

    Off-topic: There was a story about Larry Munson’s forecast for Georgia this coming season in the AJC. Here is a quote:

    “I think we’re going to lose a lot of games,” said the Dogs’ legendary play-by-play man. “It’s scary; it really is scary. I’m a worrier, but this is the most worried I’ve ever been.”

    Thought that was interesting, but I don’t know if he always says stuff like that as I am not a Bulldog.

  116. 116
    braves14 Says:

    says stuff like that all the time*

  117. 117
    csg Says:

    The second pitcher will be right-hander Neftali Feliz, 19, a hard-throwing Dominican rated the Braves’ No. 18 prospect by Baseball America. He has 70 strikeouts in 5 1/3 innings in two seasons at Rookie and Class-A levels.

    70K’s in 5 1/3 innings…sounds like this guy needs a new catcher to throw to

  118. 118
    csg Says:

    so these are our SS in the rumors today, tell me if Im wrong

    Andrus for Teixiera
    Lillibridge for Dotel, or Davies
    Escobar for Arroyo

    so who would that leave us after Renty is gone. Prado, JS Jr…

  119. 119
    RehabReject Says:

    quick question to everyone on here:

    What’s a good Atlanta radio sports station? I’m from FL and I looked online. I tried this one station with Colin Cowherd and he was total B.S. . He talks about the dumbest things.

    What station is Dave O’Brien on?

    thanks guys

  120. 120
    Dan Says:

    “Andrus for Teixiera”

    Well, that’s not really a rumor anymore.

  121. 121
    Hate King Says:

    I voted the deal a 4. I’m not sold on Dotel, but Davies is a bum. I have no problem trading him.

  122. 122
    csg Says:

    yes, but he is a SS and was in the rumors today, until the trade was completed.

    Some guy just posted on MLB rumors that our offer for Dotel is Davies, Acosta, and Lillibridge.

    Ummm, Id have to say NO! Not unless we are getting Greinke or Gordon

  123. 123
    csg Says:

    Phils are up 4-0, but Bourn just hurt his ankle. He’s staying in the game somehow. It looked pretty bad

  124. 124
    csg Says:

    Dayn Perry….

    The Braves may live to regret parting with high-upside talents like Saltalamacchia and Andrus; however, as the research of Jay Jaffe of Baseball Prospectus has shown, Braves GM John Schuerholz has a knack for knowing which prospects to part with and which to keep. Considering the organization’s history in this regard, it’s not wise to bet against them.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7075888

  125. 125
    csg Says:

    people on prosports daily rumors are saying that the Dotel trade is done, no link though. Its Dotel for Davies

  126. 126
    sansho1 Says:

    The Phils already pulled Victorino to put in Bourn, so maybe he has to stay in.

  127. 127
    sansho1 Says:

    In fact, I was wondering if Victorino was hurt — he got pulled in the fourth inning. What’s going on?

  128. 128
    csg Says:

    they had Dobbs out there stretching. After Bourn finally got up he stayed in

  129. 129
    JoeyT Says:

    csg, I posted a link in #50:

    http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/archives/119073.asp

    It’s just one source, but it’s a legit paper.

  130. 130
    csg Says:

    Victorino has a calf strain

    http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070730&content_id=2119337&vkey=news_phi&fext=.jsp&c_id=phi

  131. 131
    csg Says:

    btw, Bourn just got pulled and Dobbs is in

  132. 132
    JoeyT Says:

    csg, another link:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/mlb_experts/post/Report-Braves-get-Dotel?urn=mlb,40796

  133. 133
    csg Says:

    who was the list of pitchers that the Rangers could choose from if Harrison isnt healthy?

    If Davies is one of the players listed to choose from what happens if we deal him for Dotel?

  134. 134
    Jeremy Says:

    @braves14: Just for fun, here’s my list.

    1. Tommy Hanson, RHP
    2. Brandon Jones, OF
    3. Jason Heyward, OF
    4. Brett Lillibridge, SS
    5. Julio Teheran, RHP
    6. Jordan Schaefer, OF
    7. Joey Devine, RHP
    8. Eric Campbell, 3B
    9. Cole Rohrbaugh, LHP
    10. Cody Johnson, 1B

  135. 135
    Stu Says:

    Heyward hasn’t even signed yet, has he?

    If by some miracle, Fields gets signed, he’s on that list, too.

  136. 136
    csg Says:

    however, this states the opposite. This says that JS has to wait until Tuesday to find out that the Tex deal went through and had to stop all other discussions until then

    http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070730&content_id=2118481&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

  137. 137
    csg Says:

    yes Heyward signed

  138. 138
    Stu Says:

    Hey, maybe Daniels will keep us from making the Davies/Dotel mistake.

  139. 139
    jea Says:

    Whatever you think of the Teixieria trade, has Bobby said that he’ll bat Teix after Chipper? If he hasn’t, I’m not sure Bobby’ll budge Andruw out of the 4 spot. He should, but I’ll believe that when I see it. And I think the trade is a good one, by the way: 3 or 4.

  140. 140
    csg Says:

    Chipper called for it in that article posted #136

  141. 141
    csg Says:

    Dotel is not complete, it was our offer

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

  142. 142
    King Diamond Says:

    I thought Davies/Dotel may have been too good to be true….crap!

  143. 143
    Sam Says:

    Oh well. No BIG loss, after all, Dotel stunk. Davies stinks worse… but you know.

  144. 144
    csg Says:

    I’m guessing that Davies is one of the players that the Rangers have to choose from. I really hope Harrison is hurt and they take Davies

    Salty, Andrus, Davies, and Feliz is better

  145. 145
    King Diamond Says:

    I don’t understand why some of you don’t want Dotel. Adding him to the bullpen is a big help. His pitches are filthy and he has a strong track record. If the cost is only Kyle Davies, what’s with the negativity?

  146. 146
    Stu Says:

    I disagree, csg. But you prolly knew that.

    Let’s get Arroyo or Vazquez, please.

  147. 147
    csg Says:

    what are you disagreeing with. Davies over Harrison in the deal?

  148. 148
    braves14 Says:

    Jeremy, what league level is Teheran at now?

  149. 149
    kc Says:

    Jeremy, you forgot Kala Ka’aihue?

    I also don’t understand why there is no love for Dotel. He is light years better than Kali.

  150. 150
    Stu Says:

    Yeah, Davies over Harrison, csg.

    Dotel’s “strong” track record includes getting injured on about every third pitch or so.

  151. 151
    csg Says:

    Gammons just said that the Tex deal was good for both teams.

    He just said Salty would be in the top 30% of catchers next year, Andrus reminds him of Jeter, and Feliz reminds him of Mariano Rivera but he has a long way to go

  152. 152
    csg Says:

    Source says deal with KC not that close
    Report indicating looming trade for Dotel may be premature
    By Mark Bowman / MLB.com

    ATLANTA — While the Braves have made inquiries about Royals closer Octavio Dotel, an American League source said there is no validity to reports that have indicated the teams are close to finalizing a deal.
    In fact, this high-ranking official said Braves general manager John Schuerholz won’t be able to get into any serious trade talks until the deal to bring Texas’ Mark Teixeira and Ron Mahay to Atlanta is finalized on the Rangers’ end. It’s expected to be completed on Tuesday after all necessary medical reviews are completed.

    Until then, Schuerholz is unable to enter any other serious negotiations, including those that would fulfill his desire to improve his pitching staff. One National League scout said he wouldn’t be surprised to see the GM land a veteran starting pitcher before Tuesday’s 4 p.m. ET trade deadline arrives.

    A Major League source who would have knowledge of any negotiations between these teams said there was absolutely no truth to SI.com’s report that the Braves were nearing a deal that would send Minor League shortstop Brent Lillibridge to the Royals in exchange for Dotel, who has converted 11 of his 14 save opportunities this year.

    If the Braves are going to end up with Dotel, it would more likely be in exchange for Kyle Davies, who Royals general manger Dayton Moore got to know well during his days in the Atlanta organization.

    Before becoming Kansas City GM last June, Dayton Moore spent more than 10 seasons making his way to the top of the Atlanta scouting and player development department.

    In his attempt to build a solid stable of young starting pitchers in Kansas City, there’s definite reason to believe Moore would be tempted to acquire Davies in exchange for Dotel.

    But even though the 23-year-old Davies’ inconsistencies led to a demotion to Triple-A Richmond earlier this month, the Braves still may want to continue developing his tremendous talents in hope that increased confidence will improve his mental approach.

    The suddenly pitching-needy Dodgers have also expressed interest in Dotel. They may be willing to get him in exchange for Minor League shortstop Chin-Lung Hu, who was named Futures Game MVP.

    __________________

  153. 153
    King Diamond Says:

    Dotel has been a lot more durable than you’re giving him credit for, Stu, but I agree that there is an injury risk with him.

    However, are there any other available relievers who average over one K per inning, have years of late-game experience and are signed to a favorable contract…that we can possibly only deal Kyle Fracking Davies to get?

    I doubt it.

  154. 154
    Stu Says:

    Thank goodness.

  155. 155
    sansho1 Says:

    Thorman for Dotel makes a lot more sense for us. Thorman is out of options and won’t have a regular job for us through next season. Since he’s still a so-called prospect, he has to play, and we have to get rid of him. Dotel would be a fine return for someone we’re about to lose for nothing.

  156. 156
    Stu Says:

    I don’t disagree with that, sansho1

  157. 157
    kc Says:

    sansho1, i doubt Dotel will come this cheap. I am sure it will be thorman plus a pitcher. This trade market is crazy, so I am certain a straight Thorman for Dotel trade is almost impossible.

    Stu, this will make you mad, but Dayton can’t resist the chance of dealing with the Braves. I am almost 80% sure right now Dotel will be in Braves uniform.

    The question is whether JS can bring in a starter.

    Regardless, this much is certain, JS is doing all the trades because he and Bobby will retire soon.

  158. 158
    sansho1 Says:

    You’re right, kc, I’m sure a straight-up trade is wishful thinking on my part. If we can add an OK pitching prospect, I’d still be happy.

  159. 159
    Stu Says:

    Acquiring Dotel isn’t objectionable, kc—giving up Davies for him is.

  160. 160
    disgruntledfan Says:

    Davies, the guy who didn’t record an out last time he pitched in the majors and just got lit up in AAA? That Davies?

  161. 161
    kc Says:

    Thanks for the clarification Stu, now I understand what you are thinking.

  162. 162
    Dan Says:

    Yes, whatever will the Braves do without Kyle Davies?

    I bet Bowman’s article is just caution, and the trade gets down right after the Rangers pick Harrison as their PTBNL tomorrow.

  163. 163
    Stu Says:

    Yeah, the one who’s a former first rounder, had a bad season and a half—while showing flashes of brilliance—and is, what, 24 years old? 23? The one not worth trading for an injury-prone, expensive reliever. That Kyle Davies.

  164. 164
    Nick Says:

    Stu, I just…I don’t get it. You spend all day complaining about how we gave up too many prospects, yet you would rather keep Davies than the best pitching prospect in the organization?

    Kyle Davies is no longer a prospect. He’s a flier, a reclamation project. There may be something in there, but it’s damn sure buried under 15 pounds of crap. He is not an ace, and even if he recovers (which there’s about a 10% chance of if he stays in our organization IMO) he’s at best a middle-of-the-rotation guy. You say those are hard to come by, but apparently they’re not, because we’re swimming up to our eyeballs in them as we speak.

    Including Davies, we have three of them who have played in the majors right now and that’s if we don’t trade for Arroyo. Why is Kyle Davies more important than Jo-Jo Reyes, who you said earlier today that you would include in an Arroyo deal? They’re the exact same pitcher as far as I can see, and Reyes is left-handed, which would theoretically make him more valuable.

    You say you see some potential, and that’s fine. I think we can all admit Davies has (or at the very least had) some potential. But he’s about as far from that now as one can possibly be.

    Is it really worth it to the organization to spend their valuable time and money in order to “fix” this guy when at best he’ll be a No. 3 starter? Or would it be better to cut bait now, send him to an organization that we know cares about him (or at least the GM does), and get something that we need for him? I’ve been going around in my head all afternoon since this rumor came up and for the life of me, I just can’t understand how one comes up with the first answer, unless you just don’t like it when players you’ve rooted for leave (and I’m starting to convince myself that that’s why nobody likes trades around here BTW).

  165. 165
    disgruntledfan Says:

    And don’t forget–Cox has about lost it with him as well. His comments after the no-out game spoke volumes about where the Braves see Davies.
    He’s not helping the team in AAA, nor does it appear he’s getting any better (or closer to returning). The bullpen needs help today, so you have to make the trade.

  166. 166
    Nick Says:

    Apparently Reitsma’s career may be over.

    http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2007/07/30/Reitsma_0731.html

  167. 167
    Nick Says:

    God help me, I’m actually feeling sorry for the man.

  168. 168
    Sam Says:

    Nick,

    Understandable. I am too. We may hate him as a pitcher, but dammit, at least he tried. It shouldn’t have to end that way, even for him.

  169. 169
    Jeremy Says:

    Jeremy, what league level is Teheran at now?

    He probably won’t debut until next year, most likely in the rookie league. He was the top international pitcher.

    Here’s some more info on Teheran from BA:

    ”We got him,” said Johnny Almaraz, the Braves’ Director of Latin American Operations. “If you had a wish list, he’d be right at the top.”

    The Braves signed sixteen-year-old Julio Teheran to a contract Monday, the first day for international signings. He’s a 6’2½”, 175-pound right-handed pitcher from Columbia that was rated as the top pitcher on the international market this summer.

    Teheran has a fastball that ranges from 91-94 mph along with a plus curve and plus changeup. The Braves have followed Teheran for two years, seeing most of his starts. When he turned sixteen in January the Braves increased their interest and made him the top target.

    ”We’re extremely happy,” said Almaraz, who has seen Teheran four times himself in person. “This kid is some type of talent. Julio is a power arm. He’s everything we look for in a pitching prospect. He’s a very special prospect because he’s so young and he has the pitchability that not many young kids have. He’s a right-handed pitcher that just has an idea of how to pitch.”

  170. 170
    Stu Says:

    Nick,

    I wouldn’t trade Reyes for Dotel and I would trade Davies for Arroyo. The point is that you don’t trade talented starters for relievers with damaged arms. For established 3rd starters, surem it shouldn’t be that hard to understand.

    And if you think I just don’t like trades, you’ve either not been around or not paid attention in the past. I’m a very big Schuerholz supporter. I hardly ever question him. There just happen to have been two trades made or nearly made today that I’m not crazy about.

  171. 171
    Oceanside Mike Says:

    I thought Reitsma’s career was over during his stint with the Braves.

    SI.com says that the Braves cleared Tex’s medical records, but also added this:

    “The sides reached a compromise agreement after Texas sought a substitute for pitching prospect Matt Harrison due to injury concerns. According to the Fort Wort Star-Telegram, the Braves have agreed to send pitching prospect Neftali Feliz and a player to be named later instead of Harrison.”

    So no Harrison to the Rangers? Wonder who it is?

  172. 172
    braves14 Says:

    Ah, yes. I remember now that you pasted that.

  173. 173
    Sam Says:

    If it’s Tom Hanson…

  174. 174
    Kyle S Says:

    I’ve already written off Davies myself. Just keeping my fingers crossed that we don’t give up a high upside guy like Hanson or Cole Rohrbough (who I’d never even heard of until today – now I think he’s one of our better prospects!) in the next day or so. Although as I said on Primer, I wouldn’t be opposed to Hanson for Arroyo, as Arroyo is a pretty good pitcher now and would give the rotation needed depth for the next four years. Not sure I believe that would happen, though; why would the Reds trade him? Don’t they need pitchers too?

  175. 175
    Jeremy Says:

    If it’s Tom Hanson…

    I’ll puke?

  176. 176
    Sam Says:

    No, too cliche, something worse.

  177. 177
    mraver Says:

    Set fire to the press box?

  178. 178
    kc Says:

    Kyle, Davies is only 23 years old. He is younger than James, younger than KJ, younger than Yunel (who knows how old he actually is), and he is only a year older than Frenchy and McCann…and you are ready to give up on him?

    Lerew is only 24 and I still haven’t given up on him. So, there is no way I am writing off Davies.

  179. 179
    urlhix Says:

    Puke on your copy of Built to Win?

  180. 180
    OneEye Says:

    If we get the top 2 trade targets at the deadline with only giving up 1 current major league caliber player that is some really good GM work.

  181. 181
    drewdat Says:

    “what league level is Teheran at now?”

    Nuclear?

  182. 182
    kc Says:

    Seems like it will indeed be Davies for Dotel.

  183. 183
    ububba Says:

    No love for Glavine & #300 in the ATL?

    http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/2007/07/30/glavine_0731.html

  184. 184
    Sam Says:

    mraver and urlhix,

    Getting there, and no, I happen to like my Built to Win book, even though it’ll be a while before I even pick it up again. :)

  185. 185
    Sam Says:

    ububba,

    Tom Glavine doesn’t deserve to be booed, I don’t think. He’s obviously held to a different standard than Franco because of the 1994 strike.

    The boos should only fly if he goes to the Hall of Fame in a Mets cap.

  186. 186
    kc Says:

    Sam, that will never happen.

  187. 187
    Sam Says:

    kc,

    It would if the Hall people go nuts and think his 300th is more important than what he did in Atlanta. ;P

  188. 188
    ububba Says:

    Sam,

    It’s not up to Glavine which hat is bronzed with his head on his HoF plaque. But there’s no way he’s going in as anything other than a Brave.

    I thought that was an interesting story with several perspectives. Of course, if you look at the very unscientific on-line vote, over 70-percent support ol’ #47.

    Me, I appreciate everything he did for the Braves. Hate that he’s a Met, but what are you gonna do?

  189. 189
    braves14 Says:

    If Gary Sheffield makes the HOF, what team is on his cap?

    Perplexing question.

  190. 190
    Sam Says:

    ububba,

    I know that the Hall decides what cap he wears. I agree that it was an interesting story too. In fact, I can say that I completely agree with you.

  191. 191
    Sam Says:

    braves14,

    DAMN, that’s a good question… I guess he’d have to be a Marlin.

  192. 192
    braves14 Says:

    He’d be their first, I think.

  193. 193
    Jeremy Says:

    Looks like the other pitcher going to Texas is Harrison after all, so long as the Rangers are satisfied with his arm.

    From DOB:

    One of the pitching prospects will be Matt Harrison, provided the Rangers are satisfied that his recently sore shoulder is sound. They’ll examine medical records closely and might wait to see him pitch a couple more times.

    The Rangers could substitute another pitching prospect if not pleased with Harrison, though Jo-Jo Reyes isn’t available in the pool they can pick from.

  194. 194
    Rip Says:

    One thing working against Arroyo is he just re-signed prior to the season. He would be much more attractive under the terms of his deal he made with the BoSox before they shipped him out of town.

    ” Arroyo gets base salaries of $4,125,000 this year and $3.95 million in 2008, figures set under the old contract. The extension includes a $2.5 million signing bonus that will be paid next year.

    Arroyo will get salaries of $9.5 million in 2009 and $11 million in 2010. There is a club option at $11 million for 2011 with a $2 million buyout. The option can escalate to $13 million, based on innings. ”

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2758621

  195. 195
    kc Says:

    Yeah, Rip, Arroyo will cost probably three prospects again because of the contract.

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