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27 Sep

Phillies 6, Braves 4

ESPN – Braves vs. Phillies Box Score, September 27 2007 – MLB

Well, the Braves have been officially eliminated. It doesn’t mean much to me, since I gave up about a month ago, but hope is officially dead. At least we helped the Mets in their quest for the biggest choke job in National League history.

Smoltz didn’t have it tonight, and gave up six runs in four innings. He did strike out eight, and he didn’t have a whole lot of help from his defense, but six runs (including two homers) is six runs.

All the Braves’ runs scored on homers. Chipper hit one with Renteria on in the sixth, and Teixeira followed with a solo shot to cut it to 6-3. But they didn’t get another run until Francoeur’s solo shot in the ninth. The Braves almost got the tying run on after Diaz singled with one out, but Escobar’s line drive was caught.

Chipper and Renteria each went 1-4. Utley was 0-4. Holliday hasn’t played yet. Right now it’s Chipper at .339, Holliday at .338, Hanley Ramirez at .333, Renteria at .332, Utley at .331.

82 Responses to “Phillies 6, Braves 4”

  1. 1
    Dan Says:

    I’d like to know how Chipper Jones can be 1-4 with a homerun and reaching first on an error tonight. Do errors count against the hitter’s batting average?

    I’m confused.

  2. 2
    kc Says:

    A 90-win season is enough to win the division…this is beyond frustration…

  3. 3
    Kerry B. Says:

    Errors, if memory serves, DO count against the batting average, similar to an out.

    I’m not a fan of that, but until it’s changed (hopefully BEFORE a last-day error costs someone a batting title), that’s how it goes.

  4. 4
    Kerry B. Says:

    Also, with the Braves officially eliminated…

    Go, Five-Way Tie, Go.

  5. 5
    Kerry B. Says:

    (Last one)

    After a quick online check, the idea behind errors hurting BA is that the batter did NOT reach base safely “on his own merits”, but because the defense f*cked up.

  6. 6
    Sam Says:

    I have to agree with that one. Go Dodgers!

  7. 7
    Dan Says:

    Yes, but if I remember correctly sacrifice flies don’t count against a player’s batting average.

    So if you hit a weak fly out to the outfield, and a runner just happens to be at third, it doesn’t count….but if your hard-hit ball goes off the third baseman’s glove and some random scorer rules it an error, it hurts a batting average?

    Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

  8. 8
    Mailman93635 Says:

    Go Mets. Talk about choking. I love it.

  9. 9
    ububba Says:

    If an error is correctly charged, the idea is that the hitter doesn’t deserve credit. It’s not a hit because, in the judgement of the scorer, the fielder had a play.

    That’s a million years old. It ain’t changing & it shouldn’t.

  10. 10
    Dan Says:

    “That giant sucking sound you hear is the New York Mets.”

    -Ross Perot

  11. 11
    Mac Thomason Says:

    That’s the rule, that’s always been the rule. If I had my way, sacrifices would count against batting average too. Then maybe we’d see fewer freaking bunts.

  12. 12
    kc Says:

    I don’t think the rule change will have any effect on Bobby’s affection for bunting…

  13. 13
    Rob Cope Says:

    I think there’s a case for sacrifices to both count against and not count against batting averages. On one hand, you willingly and knowingly gave up your at-bat and an out to move a runner into scoring position. On the other hand, you didn’t get a hit; you got out.

    I’ve always kinda thought sac flies should be outs. I don’t see the argument why a fly ball that scores a run isn’t an at-bat, but grounding out and a run scoring is an at-bat. Either make them both at-bats, or neither of them. It’s inconsistent.

    Errors being outs on your BA makes sense. You didn’t get a hit; the defender just blew it.

  14. 14
    RobBroad4th Says:

    I’m looking forward to next year and hope we have a really active off-season.

    The Mets, though tied for first in the NL East, are 0.5 games out of the Wild Card. I love it.

  15. 15
    Mac Thomason Says:

    New poll!

  16. 16
    Tom H. Says:

    KJ, if you look at it, has come up small in a lot of clutch spots this year. I was really hoping he would connect off of Myers’ breaking pitches but he wasn’t even close.

    Maybe all the off season workouts caught up to him.

  17. 17
    ububba Says:

    DOB’s blog: He talked with Boras & Andruw’s “good as gone,” plus more stats about why the Braves should have a better record.

    http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2007/09/27/sounds_like_and.html

  18. 18
    Jeremy Says:

    I’m interested to see what route the Braves take to address CF. They could promote from within (Lillibridge, Blanco), they could move Francoeur there, they could sign a FA (Mike Cameron), or they could acquire someone via trade. There’s also the outside chance that Andruw accepts arbitration.

    Should be a real doozy.

  19. 19
    ryan c Says:

    3 moves:
    1. add a starter by trading renteria.
    2. sign a centerfielder that can hit for average (i believe we will have enough power in the lineup)
    3. sign tex to long term deal, and keep the bullpen the way it is.

    so help me god, if we start camp again relying on mike hampton.

  20. 20
    Dan Says:

    David O’Brien:

    So I won’t go into great detail here. Suffice to say, I’ll be getting a five-year, $75 mill contract before Andruw Jones accepts a one-year deal. Boras made that pretty clear: There’s no way his client, Andruw Jones, would even have to consider a one-year deal.

    Darn, no 15+ million for a .220 hitter with an OBP around .315.

  21. 21
    ryan c Says:

    please, for the love of god….get some speed in the top of the lineup.

  22. 22
    Dan Says:

    “if we start camp again relying on mike hampton”

    As long as it’s not the third starter like this season. Rely and build the team as if Hampton is the fifth starter, that way if he sucks and won’t be so bad.

    This team doesn’t need a major overhaul in the starting rotation. Just a solid #3 to go betweem Smoltz-Hudson and James-Hampton.

  23. 23
    ububba Says:

    For the moment, here’s all I’m thinking about:

    *Seeing Chipper clinch his first batting title.

    *Checking the scoreboard for a full-on Mets collapse.

    *Enjoying my weekend in Houston & maybe finding some good BBQ (something that doesn’t exist in NYC).

    *Having the Dogs beat Ole Miss

  24. 24
    Dan Says:

    please, for the love of god….get some speed in the top of the lineup.

    It’s last year’s offseason all over again.

    The Braves do not need offense. Scoring is not their problem.

    The last thing the Braves need is a speedy one-dimensional singles hitter with no homerun power at the top of the order to run themselves out of potential big innings.

  25. 25
    Parish Says:

    Ububba,

    Add to that:

    *Watching the Red Sox hold on to their division lead…barely.

  26. 26
    Parish Says:

    Does speed at the top of the lineup = Gregor Blanco?

  27. 27
    Frank Says:

    Wonder if we’ll now get a ruling on Soriano’s appeal or if Soriano will drop it. I think his suspension is harsh since the umps didn’t even throw him out of the game.

  28. 28
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Holliday is 1-3, will bat at least one more time, and is still at .338.

  29. 29
    ububba Says:

    Parish,

    True-dat.

    But don’t worry. The Yanks aren’t even trying to win anymore—Torre sat most of their regulars tonight. ATL’s 14-year streak is gonna be safe for a long time.

  30. 30
    kc Says:

    The Dodgers walked Holliday again, Chipper’s lead is safe for another day…

  31. 31
    kc Says:

    …and the Rockies will have the same record as the Mets and the Phillies if they can hold on to the lead…and they will have a 11-game winning streak!!!

  32. 32
    ububba Says:

    If he stays in the game, Holliday is due up 5th in the 9th.

  33. 33
    ububba Says:

    Wow, 11 in a row for COL is pretty amazing at this point in the season.

    Still, I must admit, these NL post-season scenarios—with these possible mini-tournaments—are giving me a headache. I love that stuff in APBA, but this is gonna be ridiculous.

    As it stands, we still could see 4 NL teams (but not 5) finish with the same record.

    Good for WTBS, I guess, but whoever eventually wins the NL could be wiped by the time the NLCS rolls around.

  34. 34
    Ron Says:

    #27, if he doesn’t get it reduced before tonight’s game, I have to believe he’ll drop the appeal and just serve 3 of the 4 games during the next 3 meaningless team games. Then he’d only be unavailable 1 game to start next year which is no big deal.

    I gave up hope about a month ago when we had that terrible road trip to Cincinnati and St. Louis then came home only to get swept by New York. A tiny spark of hope almost came back the last 2 weeks, but fortunately I snuffed it out before the team could break my heart again.

  35. 35
    Kevin Lee Says:

    ryan c.;
    @19

    I hope you make this same post every day until spring training. I hope to kidnap Terry Mc G. and have this tattooed on his chest. I think JS should inscribe your post on every one of his stupid books. I think it should be written on a thousand baseballs and then force Bobby Cox to try to bunt them.

    I don’t want to hear how good our offense was this year. After the 6th, they folded like cheap lawn furniture. It’s on record. See DOB blog mentioned above.
    I don’t ever want to see Andruw Jones in a Braves uniform again.
    I’m sorry. I just feel like the Braves owe me one. It’s not rational, but that’s fandom for you.

  36. 36
    ryan c Says:

    “It’s last year’s offseason all over again.

    The Braves do not need offense. Scoring is not their problem”

    dan,
    ok….so i guess i should suggest we get a centerfielder who has power, can play the field, and sux offensively. we already had that and it didnt work for us this year. why cant i hope for a leadoff hitter? i didnt say he should be one dimensional, but it would be nice to have some speed to shake things up a little bit. with tex, mccann, chipper, and francoeur, we have enough power.

  37. 37
    ryan c Says:

    kevin, i couldnt tell if that was sarcastic or not, but thanks?

  38. 38
    Kevin Lee Says:

    ryan c,;
    Please excuse my poor writing, tempered by my sadness and weariness from this season ending.
    If I could sum up exactly what I think the Braves should do, your post #19 would be it.

    Thanks for telling the truth.

  39. 39
    Coop Says:

    I’ll miss Andruw. He gave the Braves great years defensively and pretty good ones offensively at below-market salary.

    I guess he would have been more appreciated if he had not looked like he enjoyed playing baseball and had exhibited more Milton Bradley-type behavior.

    The boy played hard. Good luck and God speed.

  40. 40
    Marc Schneider Says:

    To Scott Boras: Take Andruw and get the hell out of town. Good riddance. (But keep Tex here!)

    So typical of the Braves this year; they have their “aces” lined up and lose both games. How many times did Hudson and Smoltz actually win back-to-back games this year? I can only remember once or twice.

    Lousy year. I’m sure Bobby will be talking about what a great year it was.

  41. 41
    JoshQ Says:

    I find the results of the poll very interesting. It seems like everyone here is either facing the depressing reality or happily delirious. I didn’t expect an even split between hope until wed and giving up a month ago.

  42. 42
    Rob Cope Says:

    We had a legitimate shot for a little while, so that’s why I had hope. Now, I did lose a lot of desire to follow the Braves after they got swept by the Mets, but since they started playing better, hope came back. I think hope until we got beat by Philly was justified.

  43. 43
    Stu Says:

    Marc,

    Your first line actually got an audible chuckle out of me.

    Coop,

    I think I probably will miss Andruw at some point next season. I don’t feel like I will right now, but I suspect I’ve probably taken for granted his contributions. The sort of player I won’t fully appreciate until he’s gone. Regardless, he’s obviously going to be too expensive, so we don’t have much choice, anyway.

  44. 44
    Ron Says:

    Let’s say Francoeur moves to center. That would give us about the same HR and RBI from CF as we got from Andruw this year but with better BA and OBP. Jeff doesn’t have the instincts of Andruw but he probably runs faster since he isn’t as fat. Call it a modest drop in defense. Escobar and Johnson (assuming one isn’t traded) can platoon at leadoff and be very productive or if they find a spot for Lillibridge, he can give us excellent speed plus decent power at the top of the order.

    The only missing pieces on offense really are another solid outfielder to play RF. I’m not sure how good Brandon Jones’ arm is, but he would probably be the logical choice. Then we need a backup catcher who can handle the position defensively well and isn’t a complete Pratt offensively. Finally we need a better bench than Franco, Thorman, and Woodward. All of that should be easily doable without breaking the bank.

    Then Shuerholz just needs to find a quality 3rd starter to go after Hudson and ahead of James and Reyes/Hampton. Glavine would be a good choice since all he would cost the team is a comparatively modest salary.

  45. 45
    Stu Says:

    If Francoeur is our CF and Jones or Diaz is our RF next season, our outfield defense will go from a strength to a weakness.

    Depending on the team’s finances, your scenario may be our best/only option; I’m just sayin’.

  46. 46
    JoeyT Says:

    To me, what’s fascinating is not just that there are still seven teams with a playoff shot with three games to play, but that all five teams in the wild card race control their own destinies. If any of them win out, they are in the playoffs.

  47. 47
    csg Says:

    great pitching matchup tonight

    Sabathia vs Davies

  48. 48
    kc Says:

    Frenchy has no business to be a center fielder. I doubt it will even be an option considered by the Braves.

  49. 49
    ububba Says:

    Of course, I awake today & my cousins from Pennsylvania are emailing me about the Phils. I replied that I can only root for them if I their fans pretend it’s all a silent movie.

    I’ll pull for you, but ssshhh.

  50. 50
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Ugh, Phillies fans.

    From MLBTR:
    “Here’s the problem: even subtracting Jones’ $13.5MM salary and replacing him internally with, say, Kelly Johnson, the Braves are looking at roughly a $7MM net increase just with current players.”

    Is he actually suggesting KJ could replace Andruw in CF?!

  51. 51
    Stu Says:

    kc,

    I tend to agree with your first sentiment there, but I really don’t know if we’ll have better options. We don’t want Willie Harris playing everyday, and by all accounts I’ve read, Brandon Jones is not ready defensively to be a CF. And I don’t know that we can afford one that’s going to be any better than what we’ve already got.

  52. 52
    Hate King Says:

    Who thinks Mike Cameron would a suitable Druw replacement in CF?

  53. 53
    Stu Says:

    I think he’d be fine, Hate King, but I don’t think we’ll be able to afford both him and a half-decent third starter.

  54. 54
    kc Says:

    I still think we will trade for a center fielder and sign Tommy back. It’s easier to trade Edgar for another position player than for a pitcher. Too bad things didn’t work out too well between Edgar and the Red Sox. Otherwise, I sort of like Crisp.

  55. 55
    kc Says:

    I agree with Stu, I don’t think we can fit in both Cameron and an established starter into the payroll.

  56. 56
    Draper11 Says:

    Why the hate against bunting?

    If we could have actually laid a few down here and there this season we would have clinched by now. Until we have Texiera and Chipper clones batting 1 through 9, we have got to be able to play small-ball. It is a shame when our one, two, and eight hole batters can’t get the ball down.

    You shouldn’t be allowed to get into the major leagues until you’ve proven you can get within 6 inches of the ball when trying to bunt. Of course, we would be about three quarters of a roster low right now.

  57. 57
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Bunting doesn’t work; the number of runs you’ll score with bunts is less than the number you’ll score without. Unless the hitter is completely hopeless (that is, a pitcher, or Chris Woodward) bunting is foolish in most circumstances.

    Moreover, Bobby has been bunting in situations where even bunt advocates don’t suggest it. He bunted with runners first and second, down three runs. He bunted to set up a tying run on the road. He keeps using pinch-hitters to bunt. Etc.

  58. 58
    csg Says:

    Drapper, its not the bunt that we hate. Its Bobby’s timing on the bunts that we dont like. Its also Bobby’s continuous calls for the bunts and them becoming more and more unsuccessful at it. Smoltz is the only person on this team that can lay down a successful bunt sacrifice.

    Example of Bobby’s bad timing – a couple of weeks back we are playing the Mets and are down 2 runs going into the 9th. they bring out Wagner who has pitched in 3 straight games. he walks the 1st batter and then the second batter gets a hit. Instead of bringing in Diaz, he chooses Orr who couldnt lay down a good bunt. Delgado throws out the runner at 2nd. Then KJ grounds into a DP to end the game. Not saying Diaz would have made a difference, but when a closer is struggling you dont give them any outs, under any circumstances

  59. 59
    Daveinzona Says:

    #52

    I would say no to Cameron, and I would say no to Hunter as well.I would, however, find Rowand,DeJesus and Church suitable; and, possibly, Sullivan or Spilborghs from the Rockies

  60. 60
    BX Says:

    I like DeJesus and I hope that our buddy Dayton would be able to work out a deal. Some deal including Thorman perhaps?

    After the Redman signing I’m weary of the “low risk” pitching signing, but would we take a chance on Randy Wolf?

  61. 61
    csg Says:

    Thorman for DeJesus has been mentioned before. Do that in a heartbeat

  62. 62
    csg Says:

    mlb rumors….

    Kemp/Kershawn for Santana
    Well it’s what I call an “official possibility” now. In his ESPN.com chat yesterday afternoon, Jonah Keri of Page 2 confirmed the Johan Santana for Matt Kemp and Clayton Kershaw rumor that’s been generating a lot of buzz here at MLBTR. Let’s discuss, shall we?

    Kemp and Kershaw both have 6 years before they reach free agency. Santana has 1. There’s the obvious red flag right there, Dodgers fans. But if Los Angeles GM Ned Colletti wants to win now, and he usually does, Santana could be the golden ticket. I shudder to think of how dominant Santana could be not only in the NL but also in Dodgers Stadium.

    I think this deal really works out for both teams. Dodgers in a win now mode and the Twins have no shot at keeping Johan. I wished we had done something like this with Andruw before

  63. 63
    ububba Says:

    Bunting beyond the automatic pitcher’s spot can work fine if one run is all you desire—for tack-on runs or to win a tied game in the bottom of the 9th, esp. if your bunter is a lousy hitter, etc.

    But bunting when losing late in a game (when you really need an XBH & can’t forfeit outs) is always an odd one.

  64. 64
    Draper11 Says:

    Okay, I agree with the bunting frustration now. I personally don’t agree with having a guy like Orr that only really has the tools to be an adequate pinch runner.

    I like the bunting option when we do need only one run, we have the tying or winning run on first or second with no outs, and the hitter warrants it. We’ve had way too many close games that were ended in that situation when we either couldn’t get the guy to third with less than two outs or hit into the Andruw aka GIDP.

  65. 65
    ububba Says:

    Unfortunately, our bench seemed to have more guys who were better bunters than hitters.

    Off to Houston. Kinda looking forward to seeing Bennett pitch tomorrow & rooting hard during every Chipper AB.

    Oh, and go you hairy Dawgs.

  66. 66
    Hate King Says:

    I think Cameron would be a great fit, but budgetwise it probably won’t work. I really don’t want to see Renteria leave, but he seems the most logical guy to go and bring back a much needed SP or CF.

    I am pissed the Georgia game will not be televised.

  67. 67
    Marc Schneider Says:

    What’s really frustrating is that the Braves have the same record as the Cubs but the Cubs will probably be going to the playoffs. The playoff system works well as far as sustaining interest but it’s grossly unfair when teams with better records than the playoff teams stay home. IMO, the solution is go back to two divisions with two wild card teams. That wouldn’t eliminate the problem but it would help.

  68. 68
    Ron Says:

    #67, there’s going to be at least 5 teams (Mets, Phils, Padres, D-backs, Rockies) possibly more with better records than the Braves when it’s all said and done, so having 2 divisions + 2 wild cards still wouldn’t have gotten us in.

  69. 69
    Andy Says:

    It looks like the winner of the Central could have the 7th best record in the league (behind Met, Phils, Braves, DBacks, Rockies, Padres).

  70. 70
    csg Says:

    how about no divisions, just two leagues. Best 4 records from each league go to the playoffs

  71. 71
    csg Says:

    mlb rumors…

    Andruw Likely Gone
    Tim discussed The Andruw Jones Situation recently and whether he’d accept a 1-year deal or a 5-year hometown discount. Now, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution discusses the inevitable departure of Andruw Jones here and here.

    Despite Andruw coming off career-worst season of hitting .222 with 26 homeruns and 94 RBIs, Scott Boras has said there’s “no way” he’ll accept a 1-year deal. Instead, he’s seeking a contract at the “fair-market value” of $17-20 million per year. That’s Vernon Wells-esque. And why not? Wells has yet to approach Andruw’s career production.

    Jones has three games left on his contract that paid him $75MM over the last 6 years, a real hometown discount. Boras has made it known they have no interest in taking another one.

    With the Braves’ desire to re-sign their new-darling Mark Teixeira after next season, who in the interim will command around $12MM in arbitration, along with salary increases for John Smoltz, Tim Hudson and other arbitration eligible players, Boras’ demands seem to indicate the unthinkable: An Atlanta without Andruw.

  72. 72
    Marc Schneider Says:

    I wouldn’t mind the Braves not getting in as long as the teams that did had better records. The point is, whether you get in the playoffs shouldn’t depend on what division you happen to be in.

  73. 73
    Another Alex R. Says:

    Ryan Church is someone I really don’t want. He’s not a good guy, and he’s likely to cause clubhouse problems. If Alex R. were here, he’d mention that Church is a bit of a bigot, and I’d tend to agree.

    Stay away.

  74. 74
    barrycuda Says:

    back to the error/ scoring discussion………..what never made sense to me is, a fly ball that scores a run doesnt count as an AB…….but a fly that moves a runner from 2nd to 3rd does…………..go figure

  75. 75
    Smitty Says:

    I wouldn’t mind getting a shot in center next year. It might be fun to play big league baseball and I would do it for $1 more than the league min. I will also take a one year deal, just to see how it works out. If I like it, I MIGHT do it again.

  76. 76
    Ron Says:

    Hmm I don’t know how they come up with that an Atlanta without Andruw is unthinkable. He’s been very good but he’s no Chipper.

  77. 77
    csg Says:

    Smitty, the Braves may need to hold open tryouts for CF next year. Ill see you there

  78. 78
    Another Alex R. Says:

    You know who I think we should get? His name starts with a C… and ends in Arl Crawford.

  79. 79
    mraver Says:

    *sigh*

    We’re not going to have a big-name CF next year unless Druw accepts arbitration. And it’s not a big deal.

    Replacing Druw’s offensive production (from this year at least) should be easy. We’ll get some guy with a good glove and little bat to run around out there, and if he’s got some speed, all the better. He’ll be cheap and he won’t command a long-term commitment.

    The thing people seem to be forgetting is that Andruw Jones was STILL amongst the top CFs defensively this year. He’s FORTH in all of MLB in putouts for a CF, behind the likes of Ichiro Suzuki, Curtis Granderson, and Coco Crisp. He’s ahead of Carlos Beltran, Aaron Rowand, and Torii Hunter. It’s his defense that will be tough to replace. Cameron would be okay, but I’d prefer to get Dejesus (he was 3rd overall) or Crisp in some sort of trade. Otherwise, just get someone who can field it okay, and screw the bat.

    I say screw the bat because, even if we get pitcher production from CF, we’ll still have one of the top offenses in the NL. We were 3rd this year, behind Colorado and Philidelphia in their hitter-friendly stadiums, and that’s with Teixeira only around for 60 games. So lets just get a glove guy capable of manning the spot until Schafer is ready in 2008/2009.

  80. 80
    Hate King Says:

    What is the scouting report on Schafer? Is he a big time prospect or more hyped trade bait?

  81. 81
    Stu Says:

    My understanding is that he’s pretty toolsy. Fast and strong. Great defender.

  82. 82
    csg Says:

    isnt schafer like two years from being ready?

    new thread!

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