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29 Oct

Renteria traded

Braves trade SS Renteria to Tigers | ajc.com

Well, that clears up that logjam. The Braves sent Renteria and some amount of money to Detroit for two prospects at positions of need. Jair Jurrjens, or the J-Man, as I intend to call him, is a righthanded pitcher from Curacao, probably not ace material but a good bet to be a solid #3 type. Gorkys Hernandez is a centerfielder who can apparently fly and hit .293 as a 19-year-old in low-A ball, but doesn’t yet seem to have the power or walks to be a major contributor. He’s some years away yet, but is supposedly toolsy enough to eventually hit some homers, and is already a good fielder. BP considers both to be among the Tigers’ top five prospects.

The immediate impact is that it means Yunel Escobar is the full-time shortstop and Kelly Johnson presumably the full-time second baseman, though you can’t count out some sort of silly platoon with Martin Prado. I don’t know what this means for Brent Lillibridge, who could be a backup at both spots or get moved to center. Long-term, all three spots would seem to be blocked for him with the two incumbent infielders and the Schafer-Hernandez combo in center.

142 Responses to “Renteria traded”

  1. 1
    Tennessee Brave Says:

    Sounds like a good deal for the Braves, but I’ll miss having Edgar on the team. He’s a great hitter, and seems to be a true professional, the classy type of player the Braves like to have in their clubhouse. I hope he does well in Detroit.

  2. 2
    Another Alex R. Says:

    Hernandez is still a long way off for centerfield. I would guess Lillibridge and Brandon Jones will be fighting over center field out of spring training. I think Lillibridge might be a bit more of a complete package than Jones right now.

  3. 3
    Another Alex R. Says:

    Also, I second that completely, TN Brave.

  4. 4
    Tony Says:

    For who?

  5. 5
    Dan Says:

    …though you can’t count out some sort of silly platoon with Martin Prado.

    Unless the Braves save Bobby from himself and trade Prado, this is exactly what’s going to happen.

  6. 6
    TheSecondSpitter Says:

    wow…thought we maybe could have gotten a little more for Renty…..Mac can we get an analysis of Jurjjens?

  7. 7
    Robert Says:

    I don’t know how they’ll end up as players but those are two great names.

  8. 8
    Robert Says:

    Oh, and we are clearly not wasting any time in making room for ARod.

  9. 9
    Marc Says:

    Poor Edgar, he has to go back to the AL :(

  10. 10
    Sam Hutcheson Says:

    Two things.

    One, rumors of a flip of some of these guys + other prospects or something like for Erik Bedard. Goes with the usual “crazy internet rumors” caveats.

    Two, toolsy CF in A-ball, decent potential #3 in high minors and $8 mil for Tom Glavine.

  11. 11
    blake Says:

    i think its pretty well setup for a Jones/Diaz platoon in left, frenchy in right and either lillibridge or an import in center until schafer is ready (im still holding out hope for Dejesus from KC, although i’d be all for lillibridge in center too)

    oh yeah, and sign glavine/teixeira.

    Smoltz
    hudson
    Glavine
    James
    Jurrjens/Hampton/vet fa off scrapheap

    Lillibridge/Dejesus
    Johnson
    Jones
    Teixeira
    Francouer
    Mccann
    Diaz/Jones
    Escobar

  12. 12
    Stu Says:

    If we trade for Erik Bedard, there’s a greater-than-zero probability that I’ll start peeing my pants and never stop.

  13. 13
    sansho1 Says:

    Looks like a fair trade to me. Just speculating, but it strikes me that opting for prospects instead of an established starter is something a newer GM would do. A guy like Garland might would help more in 2008, but there’s little upside there, which might make it a trade a short-timer would be more likely to make.

    Edgar was one classy Brave.

  14. 14
    JoeyT Says:

    @Robert: I know! My dream fantasyland thought of “Oh! Now A-Rod can play short!” popped into my head first until I laughed it off.

    Then wept.

  15. 15
    Hate King Says:

    Escobar will be hitting leadoff or in the two spot.

    I like the long term look at CF. Two “toolsy” prospects fighting it out in the minors, allowing everyone to evaluate both and make the decision on who is best for the Braves.

    Jurrjens is exactly what we need, a young, cheap, controllable starter with upside.

    I like the trade, but will definitely miss watching Renteria ball out. Remember the game against the cubs where he confronted Lilly and then blatantly took out Theriot at second. Renteria played hard and well. He will be missed.

    Marte has provided the Braves with a lot of players, and discussions on the Braves Journal board. I consider him a success too.

  16. 16
    Dan Says:

    Smoltz
    Hudson
    Glavine
    James
    Hampton/Reyes/Jurrjens

    I like it.

  17. 17
    Stu Says:

    My guess:

    Smoltz
    Hudson
    Glavine
    Jurrjens
    Hampton/Reyes

    Chuck traded either as part of a bigger package for a more established pitcher (thereby making the above rotation look even better) or for a CF.

  18. 18
    csg Says:

    I bet Renteria will struggle with that high ankle sprain next year also. That is something that could plague him for a while.

  19. 19
    sansho1 Says:

    #13

    “might would”

    Not meant in the sense of the infinitely more acceptable “might could”, but rather that I need an editor…

  20. 20
    csg Says:

    Mac, other Bama fans, good news. Perriloux and LB Derrick Odom will not play against Bama because of a nightclub altercation. However, this could be something that Les Miles is putting out there so Bama wont prepare for the multiple QB situation

  21. 21
    OneEye Says:

    Fair trade? Are you kidding me?

    The Braves got bent over and pounded on this one.

    Jurrjens is a 6’1″ 160lb guy who spent time on the DL last year. He struck out 3 guys per 9 innings. The other guy is basically willie mays hayes (the A ball version) – a speed guy who cant put the ball on the ground.

    We gave up a guy who hit .332 in the MAJOR leagues.

  22. 22
    Another Alex R. Says:

    Stu, I think we should do what it takes to land Bedard, if only because of the nonzero chance you mentioned a moment ago.

    Back on non-bizarro world, I still think Glavine’s not the best use for our money.

  23. 23
    DougM Says:

    Wait a minute. The Braves traded an All-Star, .300 hitting shortstop for two unbloodied prospects? And everyone on this site is happy about it? I thought the Braves were a couple of starting pitchers (and a centerfielder) away from true pennant contention in ’08 and would use one of the surplus infielders to fill one or more of those holes. Now Glavine is expected to be the solution to the starting pitching problems? Jeez!

  24. 24
    blake Says:

    sorry, i forgot about Reyes for the fifth spot.

    Hate, I agree completely, I was just listing what I thought was the best possible scenario, more than likely lillibridge (if we dont acquire a dejesus) or KJ if we do will be shifted to 7th with diaz/jones shifted to 8th. escobar, i think, will probably hit 2nd if we get a dejesus type, or 1st if we go with lillibridge (with KJ then going 2nd).

  25. 25
    Another Alex R. Says:

    OneEye, Renteria’s gone after next year and we’ve got a middle infield clog. He costs somewhere between $6 and $8 million dollars. His defense is somewhere between terrible and below average.

    Jurrjens and Hernandez are both very young and have good minor league track records and scouting profiles. You don’t usually get two young prospects of this caliber for old, declining players in their walk years.

    Renteria is not gonna hit .332 again, man. Sell high.

  26. 26
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Jurrjens struck out 94 in 112 2/3 IP in AA last year. That’s pretty impressive considering he was still young for the level. Last year, the gap between the third-best starting pitcher in the organization (James) and whoever was fourth was immense. Jurrjens is easily better than that #4 guy right now, and might get better.

  27. 27
    blake Says:

    thank you AAR, 100% agree. (except that on a 1 year with a mutual option for 2 type deal Glavine looks like a solid fit for us for 2008) he will eat innings like he always does, and be better than the Josh Fogg’s of the world most of the time, plus there is the history that should lead him to sign for 7-8 mill. We can still easily sign teixeira if we add any extension (at say 20/per) to this year’s 13 mill, rather than counting 20 mill for this year when Glavine is still under contract.

  28. 28
    Coop Says:

    Stu @ 22:

    Bedard, yes; Glavine, maybe at a bargain-basement price.

    Tom WAS great. Now he’s a gamble. I can’t forget his last start when Big Game Tom didn’t show.

  29. 29
    Sam Says:

    Even if Hernandez and Jurrjens don’t pan out, the Braves have cleared a logjam at short and freed up money.

    It’s very hard to spin this into a bad trade.

  30. 30
    JoeyT Says:

    Jurrjens has crazy minor league numbers. 30 major league innings in the AL at 21 doesn’t mean nearly as much as remarkably consistent stellar numbers at every minor league level. He’s a fantastic prospect.

    Hernandez’ numbers don’t really stand out, but it’s only 174 games in the lowest of levels, so you never know.

    Jurrjens fills a need right now. If Hampton is hurt or otherwise not ready, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him start on the Braves out of Spring Training.

  31. 31
    MikeM Says:

    I agree Coop,

    And what I can’t forget (and have not for 5 years) are Glavine’s last two starts in a Braves uniform when he was absolutely terrible and single-handedly lost the NLDS to Barry Bonds, Benito Santiago & Co.

  32. 32
    Stu Says:

    Playing the devil’s advocate, Sam, if –

    1) that money is spent on Glavine, and Glavine sucks;
    2) Edgar tears up the AL this year;
    3) Yunel turns back into a pumpkin; and
    4) neither Jurrjens nor Hernandez do anything with the Braves

    – then it will have been a bad trade.

    I like it as of right now, though, for sure.

  33. 33
    TheSecondSpitter Says:

    Hey, last time we traded a veteran to Detroit for a prospect pitcher it worked out ok….

  34. 34
    Sam Says:

    Stu,

    Of course Glavine could easily suck. But when you say Escobar “turns back into a pumpkin”, that implies that he was a pumpkin at some point. Besides, you left Lillibridge out of the equation, and we won’t know for a few years if Jurrjens or Hernandez will pan out. That’s a lot of variables for a bad trade. ;)

  35. 35
    Sam Says:

    MikeM,

    As I recall, that’s when Glavine got on my last nerve, and I didn’t care much when he signed with the Mets.

  36. 36
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Motown reaction:

    http://www.blessyouboys.com/story/2007/10/29/173323/22

    My initial reaction is mixed, but I’m still trying to sort it all out in my head. I’m thrilled the Tigers got what was probably the best shortstop available, someone proficient with both the bat and the glove. But to give up one of their best minor league outfielders, along with a top pitching prospect seems like a rather high price at first glance. I could’ve seen trading either Hernandez or Jurrjens in such a deal. To see them both go is a bit of a surprise.

    http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/10/tigers-acquire-edgar-renteria/

    I’ll have more on this later when I digest it, but wow. Renteria is a nice player and affordable, but the Tigers just traded 2 of their top 4 prospects for a shortstop on the wrong side of 30. This team just got a lot older.

    http://www.mackavenuetigers.com/2007/10/29/ss-problem-solved-with-trade-for-renteria/

    I was just getting used to having Jair Jurrjens around. He’s a good young kid at 21. Doesn’t get stressed on the mound. He was part of the Tigers reloading their young staff.

    I would have been happier if say, Dallas Trahern was the pitcher selected for the trade. Just sorta throwing potential toward the Braves, not throwing a proven major league guy.

    For any Braves fans who might be stopping by, I’ll say this: I think you finally got a trade with the Tigers that won’t blow up in your face. I’d feel pretty good about receiving those two guys if I were you.

    http://www.dailyfungo.com/2007/10/29/that-was-quick/#comment-12209
    I love the move. I know a lot of people are going to complain that they gave up too much, but I think if Jurrjens hadn’t given the fans a taste of what he can offer this past season, you’d be claiming we put the screws to the Braves today.

  37. 37
    sansho1 Says:

    For any Braves fans who might be stopping by, I’ll say this: I think you finally got a trade with the Tigers that won’t blow up in your face.

    I don’t know how old the fellow is who wrote this, but honestly, that’s hilarious.

  38. 38
    jj3bagger Says:

    Interesting breakdown on the trade from Nate Silver at BP:

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=648

  39. 39
    Adam M Says:

    It seems Mac already answered the guy… nice.

  40. 40
    Robert Says:

    It’s not hard to imagine this not working out. We use the money on Glavine and he stinks (what I call the ‘likely’ scenario), Renteria keeps doing what he’s doing (somewhat likely for a year or two anyway), Escobar has a sophomore slump and becomes an offensive sinkhole (could happen), the new guys don’t work out (who knows).

    I’m just glad we are back to acting like the the franchise will continue to exist after the current season. I wish this were the first step in a full scale rebuild but we know that won’t happen until Smoltz is gone.

  41. 41
    sansho1 Says:

    Sure enough, the guy says he was 8 years old then, so it doesn’t count. Seems to me that would mean he can barely remember the benefit, but has witnessed the cost for virtually his entire life. :)

  42. 42
    Andy Says:

    I was expecting to get someone like Garland, Vazquez or Bonderman for Renteria, so this is a surprise. But it looks OK. I’m excited for next year already.

  43. 43
    Rob Copenhaver Says:

    Yeah, that Smoltz for Alexander trade really blew up in our face. Are they referring to the Farnsworth trade?

  44. 44
    Stu Says:

    Rob,

    He must be referring to that trade, but I don’t even think of that one as all that bad for the Braves.

    Andy,

    Wow, I didn’t think those three pitchers you mention were even in the same category with each other.

  45. 45
    Sam Says:

    Rob,

    Yeah, that’s probably it.

  46. 46
    Adam M Says:

    Is there another trade that I’m missing here? It must be Farnsworth? Is he confusing the Braves for the Hawks?

  47. 47
    Sam Says:

    Adam M,

    Hee heeee, Rasheed Wallace…

  48. 48
    Adam M Says:

    Yeah, I’m not even ready to say that trade blew up in our face, though the memories of Game 4 will probably be with me for the next 20 years.

  49. 49
    Robert Says:

    I think he was pretty clearly throwing it in our face that we threw away George Lombard’s career year.

  50. 50
    csg Says:

    “This trade wouldn’t make much sense in a vacuum if it was the only deal we were going to make,” Wren said.

    Wren wouldn’t reveal the amount of cash sent to Detroit to cover part of Renteria’s contract, but said it wasn’t as much as the $8 million that Boston agreed to pay when it traded him to the Braves after the 2005 season. The Red Sox agreed to cover the $3 million buyout if Renteria opts out of his $11 million option for 2009.

    Escobar showed enormous promise in his rookie season. The Cuban defector played all over the infield and batted .326 with five homers and 28 RBIs.

    “We felt like this was the one area where we could acquire talent as well as put ourselves in position to make other moves,” Wren said.

    Jurrjens started seven games with Detroit last year and was 3-1 with a 4.70 ERA. He was 7-5 with a 3.20 ERA in 19 starts for Double-A Erie.

    The native of Curacao allowed one hit in his second major league start, helping Detroit beat the AL-champion Cleveland Indians 2-1 in late August.

    “For a young kid, he’s got a good arm,” Cleveland’s Casey Blake said after the game.

    Wren expects Jurrjens and another prospect, Jo-Jo Reyes, to compete for a spot in the Braves rotation next spring.

    “If they’re not in the rotation at the beginning of next year, they’re going to be in there very quickly over the course of the next season, season and a half,” Wren said. “They’re both going to be in our rotation for a long, long time.”

    Hernandez hit .293 with four homers, 50 RBIs and 54 steals in 124 games at Single-A West Michigan last season.

    Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

  51. 51
    Sam Says:

    Robert,

    HA! I got a good laugh out of that one.

  52. 52
    mraver Says:

    Nice trade! Perhaps not quite what I was expecting to see, but this trade might just push Atlanta back into the top 5 in organizational prospect rankings. At the least, it’ll get them back in the discussion.

  53. 53
    Rob Copenhaver Says:

    So, will the J-man be a viable candidate in the rotation? Also, does that article mean that the Braves made money off trading Renteria? If we received $8M from Boston, and we’re not sending all of that, does that mean we keep it, or does it go back to Boston or something?

  54. 54
    Johnny Says:

    @43 Thanks. I was trying to figure out what he was talking about too.

    On the one hand I agree with those that are saying Edgar for who? I mean a .332 hitter for Gorky and Jair? Well beats the heck out of a salary dump like Millwood for Estrada. Thats what this really is. A salary dump. Shortstops that hit like Edgar don’t grow on trees but our offense will be able to take the expected regression to mean that Escobar will experience next season. And if it frees up money for a pitcher even if it is Glavine then so be it. If the Tigers are in win now mode we are in win yesterday mode. This is a good move.

  55. 55
    Sam Hutcheson Says:

    This is the kind of tradea a mid-tier payroll team makes to remain competitive. Yes, everything that could go wrong could go wrong but it’s unlikely. Escobar could regress, probably will a bit, but he’s no worse bet on that front than Renteria, a 30+ year old who just posted a career year. Escobar provides much better defense up the middle and is cheap. If the Braves don’t want to spend the extra cash on Glavine there’s always Mike Cameron.

  56. 56
    Stu Says:

    I’ve been scouring various internet sources to read about the two newest members of our organization. Based on what I’ve seen, the high-end comparisons for Jurrjens and Hernandez would be Huddy and Kenny Lofton. Interesting. FWIW.

  57. 57
    kc Says:

    I am very surprised the Braves traded Edgar so early in the off-season. The only way to explain the trade is that Wren is loading up more prospects for further trades in the offseason…

  58. 58
    Rob Copenhaver Says:

    At first I was uneasy about this trade, but things are looking pretty good. Hernandez is a long ways off, and that kinda stinks, but I think we either are already have or will be able to get enough to have a replacement in CF for atleast a year, so that’s that, and Jurrjens looks to be pretty good. Realistically, he could be a good #4 starter, and he could perhaps get even better. What do you do now with the freed-up payroll? Personally, Glavine may be the best option, but he’s not too attractive right now. Perhaps it’s good I don’t see him as one of my all-time favorite Braves. I was 17 when he left the Braves, and so his glory years aren’t easily remembered.

  59. 59
    Jeremy Says:

    I wish this were the first step in a full scale rebuild

    Boy, you’re really in a dour mood. What’s wrong? Fourth place in the Pac-10 doesn’t feel so hot?

  60. 60
    Rbraves Follower Says:

    Anyone else think Gorkys could be gone this offseason? I really like the trade, but getting a good portion of the value back in a CF in low-a ball, with our OF depth and all the Schafer hype ahead of him, seems a little strange. Obviously you make do with what the other team has, and having options is never a bad thing, but combined with the above article, I wouldn’t be shocked.

  61. 61
    Another Alex R. Says:

    Stu, if Hernandez develops into Kenny Lofton (or even Brett Butler), I think we’re going to be some wildly happy Braves fans for quite some time.

  62. 62
    Chief Nocahoma Says:

    After reading comments I can’t believe this board thinks this is a good trade. All it shows is porn(Liberty Media) don’t pay. This is the first of many salary purges.

    At least we could have gotten TRUE prospects.

  63. 63
    kc Says:

    From BP:

    “Frank Wren’s first deal as Braves GM was made with his former boss in Florida, Dave Dombrowski, though sources tell me that this deal began with John Schuerholz and was discussed as far back as the trading deadline.”

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=646

  64. 64
    Robert Says:

    Boy, you’re really in a dour mood. What’s wrong? Fourth place in the Pac-10 doesn’t feel so hot?

    Now that you mention it, no, not really.

  65. 65
    Dan Says:

    Are they referring to the Farnsworth trade?

    Probably the Ledezma trade.

  66. 66
    Dan Says:

    I wish this were the first step in a full scale rebuild

    No thanks. I don’t feel like waiting until 2013 for the Braves to be relevant and compete again.

    Look at the Marlins.

  67. 67
    Robert Says:

    Look at the Indians

  68. 68
    sansho1 Says:

    It’s not a salary dump. Edgar had only one year left on his contract, and we weren’t about to entertain giving a 33-year-old (going into ’09) shortstop with a bad back a three-year contract. So we’re trading him a year early so that 1) we get something good for him, and 2) we can get 90% of the production at 1/20th the price with Yunel.

    Colorado trading us Hampton was a salary dump. We would have been insanely stupid not to trade Edgar, as good a guy as he has been.

  69. 69
    Sam Says:

    Dan,

    Hear hear. Let’s not be the Marlins with money, please.

  70. 70
    Sam Says:

    Chief,

    I hope you’re being REALLY sarcastic. What is your basis for thinking that this is the start of the Braves turning into “Florida Marlins, Part Deux”? Do you have any proof?

  71. 71
    Stu Says:

    Uh oh, Sam’s personally offended again. Watch out!

  72. 72
    Sam Says:

    Ha ha ha.

    I just want to know if he’s being sarcastic or not and to defend what he said. That’s a serious charge, and obviously it might mean the team will be ordered to get rid of Chipper Jones, John Smoltz, Tim Hudson and Mark Teixeira, etc. because their money should obviously go into our porn-dealing owners’ pockets.

  73. 73
    Stu Says:

    Sam, it’s not a charge. It’s a fan’s opinion. We all know nobody’s been ordered to unload those guys, so why get so worked up about it?

  74. 74
    Sam Says:

    Stu,

    Well, I’m just looking for a debate, I suppose. I expect people to back up their opinions, as you should expect me to back up mine if I make a dumb statement.

  75. 75
    Stu Says:

    Need I remind you with whom we’re dealing here?

    Chief Nocahoma Says:
    August 2nd, 2007 at 9:56 pm
    What happened to Renteria. Was having sex at the time he was injured, LOL. /serious

    Priorities…

    This doesn’t strike me as a man willing to spend his time debating you.

  76. 76
    Cary Says:

    By the way, Tom Glavine had 23 Quality Starts (6.0+ innings pitched with 3 ER or less) in 34 Games Started during the 2007 season.

    That would be more Quality Starts than say Brandon Webb, or Roy Oswalt, or a guy I like to call Johan Santana.

    For comparison’s sake:

    Hudson had 25 Quality Starts in 34 Games Started.

    Smoltz had 26 Quality Starts in 32 Games Started.

    So before we disparage Glavine, we may need to acknowledge that the future Hall of Famer doesn’t actually suck. He can even be a damn good acquisition for us.

    Here are the Quality Start leaders:

    Sortable Pitching
    RK PLAYER TEAM QS QS%
    1 Jake Peavy SDG 28 0.82
    Dan Haren OAK 28 0.82
    3 John Smoltz ATL 26 0.81
    Brad Penny LAD 26 0.79
    Fausto Carmona CLE 26 0.81
    6 Tim Hudson ATL 25 0.74
    C.C. Sabathia CLE 25 0.74
    8 John Lackey LAA 24 0.73
    9 Tom Glavine NYM 23 0.68
    Gil Meche KAN 23 0.68
    11 Andy Pettitte NYY 22 0.65
    Bronson Arroyo CIN 22 0.65
    Brandon Webb ARI 22 0.65
    Ian Snell PIT 22 0.69
    Matt Cain SFO 22 0.69
    16 Roy Halladay TOR 21 0.68
    Jon Garland CHW 21 0.66
    Johan Santana MIN 21 0.64
    Roy Oswalt HOU 21 0.66
    Erik Bedard BAL 21 0.75

  77. 77
    Sam Says:

    Stu,

    Hm, good point.

  78. 78
    Cary Says:

    Oh, and I love the Renteria for J-Man and Gorkys trade. We’re dealing from a position of strength and shoring up weaknesses, while freeing money to further supplement our pitching (Glavine) and/or sign Tex to an extension.

    Well done, Wreny!

    Here’s to meeting the Tigers in the World Series in 2008.

  79. 79
    csg Says:

    If you see that both teams have fans that agree and disagree with the trade, at least its not one sided. (ex. Horacio for Soriano)…

    Yunel looks like he’s more than capable to play short. Even with losing Andruw and Renteria we are gaining a full season of Tex and hopefully no more platoons with 2nd and LF. Our offense is our strength and just like last year, LaRoche, we can afford to lose some of it.

  80. 80
    sansho1 Says:

    It’ll never happen, but I would like to see the Braves sign Glavine and make him our official Sunday Starter. I think he’s got something left in the tank (as Cary points out) — he’s just too old for the rotation grind.

    Unfortunately it’s a creative solution and Glavine is a Proud Athlete, so I’m not holding my breath. But I’ll bet it would work.

  81. 81
    lagfish Says:

    Acquiring Glavine wouldn’t really upset me but I am starting to subscribe to the Steinbrenner Doctrine and what I really want to see is the Braves holding the championship trophy and doing drunken irish jigs on some random AL teams home field so the words “innings eater” and “quality starts” just aren’t doing it for me these days. Sorry but I am a bit bitter these days, Braves and Dolphins fan here.

  82. 82
    csg Says:

    there are a lot of post on mlb rumors regarding this trade and the Braves possibly moving one of these guys with others to the A’s for Blanton or Haren??? Doubt it, but would be fine by me

  83. 83
    csg Says:

    lagfish, want to share your thoughts on Nick Saban??

  84. 84
    Mac Thomason Says:

    To be honest, I think that the best alignment would probably be Yunel at second, Lillibridge at short, and KJ in center, but that’s not very likely. Lillibridge by all accounts is a better shortstop than Escobar, who in turn is probably a better second baseman than Johnson.

    As for “rebuilding”, it’s a stupid concept. This isn’t football. It’s a lot easier to stay good than to become good. The reverse-draft isn’t nearly strong enough to pull up weak teams, especially when you consider the cash-flow difficulties a bad team faces. There’s a reason that teams like the Royals and Pirates stay bad for decades, and it’s not just “small market”. And the Braves’ position core (other than Chipper) is young; nobody other likely starter has six years’ service time yet. Considering that Chipper and Smoltz are (all together now!) TEN AND FIVE MEN AND CAN’T BE TRADED WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT, WHICH GREATLY REDUCES THEIR VALUE IN TRADE, tearing down the team means basically just two players, Hudson and Teixeira.

  85. 85
    Stu Says:

    csg,

    DOB says Wren said Jurrjens and Hernandez will absolutely NOT be flipped in another deal this offseason.

  86. 86
    Eric Says:

    Amen lagfish, Braves and Dolphins fan here too

  87. 87
    lagfish Says:

    csg
    Don’t blaspheme in the Braves blog.

  88. 88
    Eric Says:

    By the way Jurrjens and Hernandez are great for Edgar. I’m surprised the Tigers let both of them go. Let’s not forget that Gorkys was the Midwest League MVP this year. (Though it could be argued that he was the second best player to Blue Jays prospect Travis Snider, thats pretty darn good)

  89. 89
    Murphy3Ever Says:

    I guess I’m in a wait-and-see mode. Wait and see what other moves Wren has in the works. Wait and see if J-man can contribute to the rotation.

    We all kinda figured Renteria was out, even if some (like me) aren’t completely sure that Escobar is ready for the full-time gig. It was the type of move that we knew was coming. And I’m okay with it.

    Best of luck to Edgar…

  90. 90
    csg Says:

    #85 Stu, thanks

    #87 Lagfish, sorry

  91. 91
    Sam Says:

    I’ve actually come against this argument (paraphrased):

    The best thing to do would have been to trade Escobar and others for starting pitching because Renteria is the “safe bet” to produce, and Escobar would probably slump when the Braves give him the first base job full-time. Plus, the two players we got in the trade don’t fill our immediate need for a center fielder or pitcher and weaken us for 2008.

    The guy who said this also agreed with ESPN The Magazine’s asseration that the Braves were a “Dead Star” organization, defined by them as “ancient celestial bodies that have burned through nearly all of their fuel”.

    The list of the space metaphors is as follows:

    Supernovas
    Comets
    Shooting Stars
    Nebulae
    Dead Stars
    Black Holes

    The Nationals and Royals are under “Nebulae: interstellar clouds of dust, gas and plasma that eventually dissipate or clump together to form stars.”

    The Cardinals, Astros, and White Sox are also Dead Star organizations.

  92. 92
    Sam Says:

    shortstop job full time, sorry.

  93. 93
    Another Alex R. Says:

    Mac, would KJ really have the range for center? Why would you prefer him out there than Lillibridge or Yunel?

    Cary, quality start stats are interesting, and certainly meaningful for a guy we’d slot in at #3/#4. I’m more concerned about scouting reports from September that seemed to say he’d really lost it. He had a really inconsistent year. He was good in April, May and August, but bad in June and July and atrocious in September.

    Glavine’s clearly near the end of his rope, so the only question is how much he has left. Does he have a month? A whole season? Starting pitching is pretty outrageously expensive right now, so if we can get him for a 1 year, $8 million contract he might — might — be worth it, but I’m not sure about that. He may well be better than Jeff Weaver and Adam Eaton, who are about comparable in cost. But he might also fall off a cliff and never return, like David Cone in 2003.

  94. 94
    csg Says:

    change of subject….

    Is Tom Brady the best QB of all time?

  95. 95
    Stu Says:

    Jair Jurrjens is 21. He’s been somewhat young for every level at which he’s played. His career minor league stats are as follows:

    503.1 IP
    ~5.8 IP/GS
    3.20 ERA
    1.19 WHIP
    7.2 K/9
    3.3 K/BB
    0.4 HR/9

    Folks, that’s a pretty good looking pitcher. I think we should be excited to have gotten him.

  96. 96
    The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Tigers Acquire Edgar Renteria Says:

    [...] Braves Journal [...]

  97. 97
    lagfish Says:

    For the record I love the Renteria trade and wish him all the best in Detroit.

  98. 98
    csg Says:

    I’m just glad that most of the guys here are now appreciative on what Renteria did for us and are now wishing him the best. Thats the way it should be

  99. 99
    hoboken_wood Says:

    I don’t believe the suggestion was that KJ play center, but that out of the three IFs, he is the worst, so the most desirable scenario would be to have Lillibridge/Escobar play 2B and SS.

  100. 100
    braves14 Says:

    Stu is right. We have very little in the upper minors in starting pitching.

    Random: When I first read Mac’s post I read Jar Jar Binks for some reason.

  101. 101
    braves14 Says:

    instead of Jurrjens.

  102. 102
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Renteria was a class act. It was a privilege to have him but I look forward to the trades on the horizon.

    When do the reports about the steroid use come out?

  103. 103
    braves14 Says:

    This makes me angry, from Peanut’s mailbag:

    If the Braves sign Tom Glavine and don’t acquire another pitcher via trade or free agency, who is the most likely candidate to fill the fifth spot in the starting rotation?
    – Trevor D., Houston, Tex.

    Assuming Mike Hampton is healthy and capable of holding the rotation’s fourth spot, there are a number of candidates, including both Chuck James and Buddy Carlyle, who combined to make 50 starts this past season.

    ___

    Why the $%$#% would we slot Hampton in the 4th spot in the rotation? Ahead of James?

  104. 104
    Jeremy Says:

    Sorry but I am a bit bitter these days, Braves and Dolphins fan here.

    Same here.

    *loads gun*

  105. 105
    Dan Says:

    I’m more upset by Bowman’s suggestion of Carlyle of Bennett in the rotation.

    Braves’ depth chart (assuming the Braves get Glavine, which appears almost inevitable):

    Smoltz
    Hudson
    Glavine
    James
    Reyes
    Jurrens
    Hampton
    Carlyle
    Bennett

    If Carlyle or Bennett are starting for the Braves in 2008, it means something has gone really wrong and the Braves aren’t likely going to make the postseason.

  106. 106
    Dan Says:

    “I’m more upset by Bowman’s suggestion of Carlyle of Bennett in the rotation.”

    ….Carlyle or Bennett….

  107. 107
    Rob Copenhaver Says:

    I like the fact that there’s so much depth in the rotation that Carlyle and Bennett are so low on the list. After all, we narrowly missed the postseason with guys like Carlyle and Bennett getting quite a few starts.

  108. 108
    Davey Says:

    “Sorry but I am a bit bitter these days, Braves and Dolphins fan here.”

    Same here. I’ll just add the Miami Hurricanes to that while I punch myself in the throat.

  109. 109
    Jeremy Says:

    Wouldn’t surprise me to see James traded, possibly for a mediocre CF stopgap. They seem higher on Reyes. And as Mac has noted here before, James and Reyes are similar pitchers, probably too similar to have both in the same rotation. I got the sense that Bobby was losing patience with Chuck last year. No concrete proof, just kind of a feeling I had.

  110. 110
    Wryn Says:

    ESPN breaking news on SportsCenter saying Joe Torre is going to be hired as Dodgers manager.

    Reports in Newsday, other places confirming it. Multiple media outlets..

  111. 111
    Stephen Says:

    I am just reading about the trade for the first time and I think that I like it. We got two valuable prospects and maybe a little stronger chance at signing Tex.

    The Marte trade continues to pay dividends….

  112. 112
    Coop Says:

    AAR @ 93: Amen.

    Dan @ 104: Concur with Carlyle, but the jury is still out on Bennett. The kid throws strikes, and we may have gotten lucky with this post-injury pitcher.

    Edgar is a classy guy, but Yunel looks like a player. I’m satisfied with him at short and Kelly at second; but if Lillibridge wins the shortstop job, forces Escobar to second, and sends Kelly in a package to Baltimore or Oakland for Bedard or Haren, that’s fine too.

    What’s next, Mr. Wren?

  113. 113
    Zappatista Says:

    As a Tigers fan just checking in to see how ya’ll took this I would like to add how I feel. I am happy to have Edgar, BUT I was hoping to watch Jair for the next ten years. Go back and look at his second start AT Cleveland. No hitter through 7. Impressive stuff, nothing overpowering, just good movement. He’s only 21 and will be a bad ass. I am not saying that you are getting another Smoltz (one in a lifetime), but you are getting a damn good pitcher for the future.

  114. 114
    Kevin Lee Says:

    This trade is a welcome distraction for me from all talk of

    THE GAME

    I live near Indianapolis and I can proudly report that in another example of perverse Hoosier contrariness there will be shopping parties at local malls and groceries for those who won’t watch

    THE GAME

    For Friday, my factory has purchased-no shit–BLUE earplugs for hearing protection as everyone will be showing their colors on that day.

    This will be my lifeline as

    THE GAME

    approaches. And no, Brady isn’t the best ever.

  115. 115
    Coop Says:

    Detroit Free Press:

    “Renteria is due to make $9 million next year, and the Tigers have a $12-million club option (or $3-million buyout) for 2009. THE BRAVES PAID THE $1-MILLION TRADE BONUS RENTERIA WAS OWED UNDER THE TERMS OF HIS CONTRACT.”

  116. 116
    CJ Says:

    “Sorry but I am a bit bitter these days, Braves and Dolphins fan here.”

    Me too. And a Florida State fan (sighs).

  117. 117
    Smitty Says:

    Well I have been in Vegas and got back and saw this move. Looks like a good deal to both sides.

  118. 118
    Mac Thomason Says:

    As Hoboken says, Lillibridge is the best defender at short, Yunel the best at second (and probably isn’t fast enough for center anyway) and that leaves center for KJ. Or you could put him back in left and sign a CF.

  119. 119
    Seat Painter Says:

    Hmmm…

    KJ, James, and a prospect (one of the CFs?) to Baltimore for Bedard. Use the cash to extend Tex and resign Mahay. How would this team look?

    Lillibridge SS
    Escobar 2B
    Jones 3B
    Texiera 1B
    McCann C
    Francoeur RF
    Diaz/ B. Jones LF
    Harris CF

    Bench
    Prado
    B. Jones/Diaz
    Pena
    ??
    ??

    Smoltz
    Hudson
    Bedard
    Jurjjens (Sp?)
    Hampton/Reyes/Bennett

    Bullpen
    Soriano
    Mahay
    D’oh – the Australian guy whose name I will remember 2 seconds after I hit Submit Comment
    Yates
    Villareal
    Whoever doesn’t lock up the 5th starter spot.

    Why waste cash on a stopgap CF when Fast Willie can fill that job. Of course, that’s only if you believe he would approach league average, and since he had a career year, he probably won’t. If Chipper could stay healthy, I think you’re looking at the NL East champs for 2008.

  120. 120
    Marc Schneider Says:

    I’m a bit disappointed that BP projects the J-man as a number 4 but otherwise it’s the kind of trade I like. Maybe you could have gotten someone like Garland but he’s nothing special and costs a lot more money. And, hopefully, J-Man does project to more than a number 4.

    And the fact that he is relatively small shouldn’t bother anyone (except maybe scouts). Pedro isn’t that big either and he has worked out ok.

  121. 121
    Stu Says:

    Seat Painter,

    It would be something like Aybar and Thorman filling out the bench. And Moylan is the Aussie reliever. And I seriously doubt Mahay is a Brave in 2008. (Substitute Ring.) And Bedard would be our #2.

    I really wish nobody had said the Bedard possibility aloud. I’ll have a one-track mind from now until he’s traded to a non-Braves team.

  122. 122
    Seat Painter Says:

    Moylan!

    I was thinking Stockman, but that’s the other Aussie, isn’t it? (It sucks being an old Tar Heel fan during football season. Bring on Robo-Hansborough!)

    I would seriously doubt Aybar will ever play another game as a Brave, but then again, I also couldn’t remember Peter Moylan’s name either, so take my opinion for what it’s worth.

    Oh, and just for Old Time’s Sake….

    Anyone think we can pry Rocco Baldelli from the D-Rays? ;)

  123. 123
    Marc Schneider Says:

    Apparently Bedard is very unpopular in the Orioles clubhouse. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t want him, but it is something to keep in mind considering the Wickman experience. My understanding is he will definitely be traded (as he should) because the O’s need a lot more help almost everywhere but he will bring a lot.

  124. 124
    Seat Painter Says:

    To continue:

    Since Baltimore is basically Tampa Bay North (hugely disproportionate trade demands), I doubt we’ll see Bedard anywhere except sitting in Camden Yards scratching hatch marks on the dugout counting down the days until he’s a free agent.

    So, we’re more likely to see KJ at 2B, with a Lillibridge/Harris platoon in CF, I expect, with Glavine filling the 3rd spot in the rotation. Not a bad fallback position.

  125. 125
    JoeyT Says:

    Ideally, I’d like to see J-man have a year, maybe half a year in AAA before joining the Braves. His numbers imply that he could use a year higher than AA, where he dominated, and lower than the majors, where he wasn’t that great yet. Richmond seems perfect. Fortunately, if Hampton is ready, Smoltz-Hudson-James-Hampton-Reyes allows J some time before an injury calls him up. I look at the new acquisition as a considerable upgrade from Carlyle, serving basically the same role next year.

    BP projects him as a #4, but I look at his numbers in the minors, and I see great potential. I know Pecota is about as good as pitching projections get, but they may be undervaluing him.

  126. 126
    noah Says:

    Great trade. Renteria was all class and he had a career year, but he’s old and expensive. And he’s not going to hit .330 next year. And we have more than adequate replacements. And this fills two positions of need for the future.

    Makes sense for both teams.

  127. 127
    Stu Says:

    I gotta say, the thought of trading KJ for even Dan Haren makes me nervous, but I’d flip him in a heartbeat for Bedard.

    Re: the clubhouse issues, my understanding is that it’s a much bigger problem for reporters than his teammates. Everything I’ve read says he’s a good guy, he just doesn’t like talking to the media. Chipper talks enough for everybody, so that shouldn’t be a problem.

  128. 128
    Stu Says:

    Completely agree with you, JoeyT. His stats (I posted a summary @ 95) are pretty dang impressive.

  129. 129
    Another Alex R. Says:

    You know, bona fide #1 starters are in a very rare breed, one I like to call “People whose crap is worth tolerating.” Other people in that breed include petulant sluggers who are paid in excess of $20 million. Even if Bedard is a preening ass, he’s really really ridiculously good.

  130. 130
    Stu Says:

    Plus, with Orr’s and Thorman’s future with the team in question, we need to start stockpiling Canadians so that we don’t run out.

  131. 131
    Marc Schneider Says:

    AAR,

    Oh, I agree with you. If you can put up with Gary Sheffield, you can put up with Bedard. And the one thing we KNOW Bobby is good at is handling a clubhouse. I would LOVE to get a legitimate number 1 to replace Smoltz eventually.

  132. 132
    Stu Says:

    This is completely off topic, but I’m not sure it gets much better than Van Morrison’s Moondance record.

    (NOTE: Acquiring Erik Bedard would cause me to seriously consider re-evaluating the above claim.) (See what I mean about the one-track mind?)

  133. 133
    Alex R. Says:

    In classic Alex R. style, I was initially upset by this deal because Edgard has been so good for the Braves his few years here in Atlanta.

    That being said, we did have a logjam and we can use that Edgard money now to help aquire a Centerfielder and another veteran starter, maybe Glavine.

    Most importantly, these 2 kids we got seem pretty highly.

    Plus, the last time we got a prospect pitcher from the Tigers, he turned out to be John Smoltz. Yeah, THAT wouldn’t be bad at all if that happened.

  134. 134
    TheSecondSpitter Says:

    Wren cleared a log-jam and filled a need. But if you read in between the lines of his comments, this is probably a set up for more deals. I think Mac is right about Reyes and James being too similar. James and prospects for another SP?

  135. 135
    Alex R. Says:

    TheSecondSpitter,

    I agree – I think Chuck James is a likely trade candidate since the writing is on the wall we bring Glavine back – and I am of course completely on board with that, especially considering he likely comes in at a more bargain basement cost of $7 to 7.5 per.

    If Glavine indeed comes back, Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Jurrjens and even Jo Jo Reyes or Bennett at #5 is a very solid rotation and allows us the ability to trade James.

  136. 136
    blake Says:

    Alex,

    I think if James is traded it will be as part of a package for another SP (hopefully a Bedard/Haren, Smoltz replacement type)…So if that was the case I think Jurrjens/Hampton/Reyes/Bennett et al. would be fighting for the 5th spot with Smoltz, Bedard? (one can dream), Hudson, Glavine, filling out 1-4. Ideally we could start the season with both Jurrjens and Reyes in AAA getting a little more seasoning, unless 1 (or both) show they are truly ready for this level.

    That said, if we just sign Glavine and James is the number 4 I won’t be disappointed. But I do agree he could be a trade candidate as bobby seemed unhappy with his performance late in the year, and I don’t want too many lefties in the rotation, which a theoretical 3-5 of James, Hampton, Glavine, Reyes combo would produce. At least Bedard is number 1 material and could be slotted ahead of Hudson next season to break up the righties, whereas none of the others are that good (or in the case of Reyes, hopefully he could be in time).

  137. 137
    chris Says:

    saint peter–

    UNC fan, here, too…

    matter of fact…it’s my alma mater…

    was there in the stac, wallace time then the carter antwan time…

    grad school in ’05…

  138. 138
    Hate King Says:

    I don’t see Wren’s history with Baltimore and Angelos leading to a trade for Bedard. I believe McPhail was given full power by Angelos in Baltimore, but history suggests Angelos can’t stay away from personnel decisions with his team.

  139. 139
    Frank Says:

    Count me among those thinking the Renteria trade is a good one. I think it amounts to selling high–I think Renty will still be a good player but I don’t think he’ll have another season like this one. The trade also gets Jurrjens who has a legit chance to make the rotation. The young OF is well regarded but I’m a bit less optimistic about him. I see a lot of BA and not much OBP or SLG. A final plus–the trade creates some payroll flexibility (though I hope it is not spent on Glavine).

    I’ve been away from the board since the end of the season. Is it safe to say the Coco Crisp lovefest has fizzled out because of his performance in the post-season?

  140. 140
    Sam Hutcheson Says:

    We have Coco Crisp. We call him Willie Harris.

  141. 141
    noah Says:

    “I’m not sure it gets much better than Van Morrison’s Moondance record.”

    Astral Weeks, IMO, is better.

  142. 142
    Alex R. Says:

    I think with all the $ we’ve already shaved this season by losing Andruw, Renty and Wickman, we have enough to say give a middling contract to Glavine and hopefully bring in a legit centerfielder like Mike Cameron.

    I think Chad Paronto did a good job, but I also didn’t mind seeing him go. We have plenty of extra ‘pen arms from Bennett to Royce Ring who didn’t have a slot open, and even made some great late year discoveries like Ascancio.

    I think our ‘pen is in great shape for next year and with the additions of Glavine and Jurgjens, I think the rotation will be in fine shape, even if we didn’t get a Haren or Bedard.

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