Braves Journal, The House That Mac Built

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29 Jun

Jays 1, Braves 0

ESPN – Braves vs. Blue Jays – Box Score – June 29, 2008

First off, Francoeur sucks. I just wanted to mention that.

Secondly, Joseph Reyes was terrific, made essentially one mistake, and wound up losing the game because of the punchless, Francoeur-laden, offense. Reyes gave up a double with a runner on first in the sixth, the runner scored, and that was the ballgame because of the terrible hitting. The Braves struck out thirteen times. They had just five hits. Only one was for extra bases, a leadoff double by Norton in the seventh; the awful hitters behind him (including Francoeur, who sucks) couldn’t get him in.

Chipper, Escobar, and Infante are all still out; at some point one of them has to go on the DL if none is capable of playing, but it’s not like there’s anything great down at Richmond. McCann had a rough day, going 0-4; this was magnified because Teixeira walked three times, twice intentionally. Blanco, who was born to be a left fielder in a turf park but twenty years too late, concluded his great series with two more hits. Lillibridge is still overwhelmed, Brandon Jones has cooled off, Gotay looks hapless, Norton isn’t good enough to play even semi-regularly, much less to DH, and Francoeur sucks. That’s more than half the team. If McCann (or one of the other remaining good players) doesn’t do well, we’re in real trouble.

246 Responses to “Jays 1, Braves 0”

  1. 1
    Smitty Says:

    McCann came up short twice, but shit, both time he had great AB’s

  2. 2
    ububba Says:

    It’s not worth pulling your hair out, folks.

    Injuries have wrecked this team. The options are limited. As hard as it is to swallow, with a lineup like this, we’re going to have games like this.

    If Toronto isn’t going to pitch to Tex & McCann isn’t going to come through, anything else we get from this bunch today would’ve been an upset.

    Again, don’t go crazy—it’s not worth it. And, yes, after that game, even soccer makes sense.

    I’m torn in this match. I was born in Germany, but I love Ibiza & my sister lives in Madrid. Just give me some drama…

  3. 3
    Mac Thomason Says:

    New poll. I think it’s important to point out how much Francoeur sucks.

  4. 4
    jj3bagger Says:

    In theory, it should be easier and cheaper to acquire hitters when your team sucks at hitting than if your team sucked at pitching, so I guess I’ll look on the bright side, and be thankful that the overall pitching has been pretty good, especially lately.

    I know you can’t expect much out of this lineup, but a pulse would have been nice.

  5. 5
    Rob Cope Says:

    I think we may be one of the few teams in the league struggling for hitting but fairly loaded with pitching. Weird.

  6. 6
    njbravesfan Says:

    I have long been a fan of Francouer as well as defending him. At this point, there is no more defending him what-so-ever. He has totally regressed. I think he has a huge upside and potential, but right now he is destroying the lineup, and is an almost automatic out. He swings at terrible pitches, and Bobby refuses to punish him for it.

    I will say this, Im a Coach, a High School Coach, at Football, and before the season you know there are some guys who migth not get the job done, and you know there are some injury prone guys. So we make plans to say, ok if this guy goes down, this is what we do.

    If anyone thought that Mike Hampton and Tommy Glavine and John Smoltz were gonna give you 30+ starts this year you were nuts. I love Smoltz, he is my all time favorite player, but he is getting up there, and you know a stint on the DL was a possibility, same goes for Tommy Glavine, you had to know there was a possibility. With Hampton, you should have said if we got A start out of him it would be a plus. So to that end you cant say we have that much depth at starting pitching, but they did do a good job of fixing the problem, with Reyes, and Morton and a gift in Campillo.

    With the offense, You KNEW Chipper wasnt gonna give you an effective 140 games, there was no way. I love Chipper, he is a loyal Brave, he gives up money so we can sign others, is unselfish and is an amazing player, but you know he is a bit fragile. You knew Kotsay was an injury prone guy.

    I mean hindsight is 20/20 so its easy to say. But starting Diaz full time was a risk, albeit he did a nice job for us in the past. Corky Miller every fifth day is an automatic out and is DISGUSTING.

    The bullpen, its sad, because Moylan was beciomming a stud. Sadly, Boyer will soon be run into the ground, because he goes out there every day and its gonna kill him.

    Im not sure what the answer is, but I would say this.

    Give Morton, Reyes, Campillo Jurrjens and Hudson the rest of the year, they have earned it, dont bring in a rental starter at this point.

    Send Francouer to the Minors and make him relearn the strike zone and show some plate discipline, the trip might make him a bit more sharp and give him a mental break, which he might need. He was the GOLDEN BOY, and he might need to be knocked down a peg, and made to understand he is not untouchable. We should play a young kid in Center the rest of the year, because Kotsay isnt going to stay healthy and we are going to have a hard time making a run at the Phillies with the shape we are in, unless we go out nad make a few trades. The Phils are down and out right now, te Mets are hurting,

    If we were to make a trade lets get a power bat in the left field spot. Anyone who can get on base, more importantly has a little pop that pitchers fear a bit.

    I really think if we lose the Phillies series and dont do much up to the all star break we become sellers.

    We have Teixera which could bring us a nice couple of minor league peices that could be ready in a year or so.

    We let the young kid pitch and learn under Smoltzie and Glavine and Huddy.

    We make Francouer understand get better or go away.

    We work on 2009 early.

  7. 7
    Bert Hammons Says:

    Mac,

    Why not do a poll on what date Francouer will reach the Mendoza line?

  8. 8
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I’m thinking more of a “how low can he go?” contest.

  9. 9
    Dan Says:

    It just keeps getting better. David O’Brien:

    Just up from the clubhouse, sounds most likely that Chipper will be DL’d, though decision won’t be made until Tuesday.

    http://tinyurl.com/429lyn

  10. 10
    DJ Says:

    Bring up Josh Anderson, Jason Smith and Sammons. AAA for Francouer and Gotay. Chip and Infante to the DL. Kotsay activated.

  11. 11
    oldtimer? Says:

    How often does a team with dominant pitching have a losing record?
    5th best ERA in baseball. 40-43 record, go figure.

    If we keep this level of pitching up we will be contenders for the playoffs at the end of the year, but I dont know how long you can pitch this well overall and not win.

  12. 12
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Viva España, I guess.

  13. 13
    Smitty Says:

    Chipper DLed may be the end of the season

  14. 14
    Chief Nocahoma Says:

    I was with you until you said this team may be in trouble. There’s no may, this team is in trouble.

  15. 15
    NickC Says:

    Gotay probably won’t clear waivers. Another team will get all excited about having a switch hitter on the bench, just like we did.

  16. 16
    Tony Says:

    Francouer batting .239 and falling…

    At this point the guy has obviously lost all confidence, he’s an easy out. For his sake I would suggest the Braves send him down. It’s really becoming a sad, very sad case.

    Please call up Sammons, McCann will be done by the middle of July. How many games has he caught in a row?

    Chipper. Oh Chipper. DL him or play.

    As far as today’s game…really who didn’t see this coming after what Sheets did.

    I love JJ and Jo Jo for the future.

  17. 17
    barrycuda Says:

    somebody just told me tha Francouer sucks………..can this be true?

  18. 18
    urlhix Says:

    I heard something about that, anyone got a link?

  19. 19
    Mac Thomason Says:

    It’s one of those unattached rumors you hear sometimes.

  20. 20
    NickC Says:

    I think we should DL Francoeur and then demote him. Give him some time off to rest his ankles and get his head right.

    Just had a quick check through our minor league teams. One right handed outfield bat in all of AA and AAA. Nice.

  21. 21
    Mac Thomason Says:

    The next poll will be (unless I think of something cleverer) about if Manny Acosta can throw a pitch so bad that Jeff Francoeur won’t swing at it. Start thinking about this, the Braves version of irresistible force and immovable object.

  22. 22
    quazz66 Says:

    New poll: who’s more likely to hit the ball out of the infield batting in our 6 hole? Francoeur or Jim Abbott?

  23. 23
    Smitty Says:

    Well if we don’t send him down (and we won’t) I figure we have to let him hit through it. It is the only way. Sitting him won’t help him and may hurt the team in the end, playing him won’t help the team in the short run.

    Crazy

  24. 24
    Smitty Says:

    quazz66,

    That is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  25. 25
    csg Says:

    better question….who would you rather have up in a game winning situation with two outs?

    Gotay, Norton, Lillibridge, Hamster, or Frenchy

    yes, our roster is this bad. Now that Brandon Jones has returned to earth, add him to that question also.

  26. 26
    Dan Says:

    The next poll will be (unless I think of something cleverer) about if Manny Acosta can throw a pitch so bad that Jeff Francoeur won’t swing at it.

    Wasn’t this a question that used to be asked here but with Dan Kolb and Adam LaRoche?

  27. 27
    Smitty Says:

    I’ll go with Norton. He doesn’t have many hits, but the ones he has had have been big

  28. 28
    barrycuda Says:

    wasting time looking at the records of some of the best hitting teams………….the ’61 yankees were shut out 6 times. so i decided not to jump off the bridge.

  29. 29
    Brian J. Says:

    Now, well someone level with us about how badly Escobar and/or Infante are hurt? We can’t go much further with essentially a 20 or 21-man roster!

  30. 30
    Parish Says:

    The thing about it is we don’t have much to look forward to at Richmond. They are already picked dry.

    Jason Perry and Diory Hernandez? They are probably better than nobody, but I’m not totally sure.

  31. 31
    braves14 Says:

    I’m shocked that 7% think Francoeur doesn’t suck and is cute.

  32. 32
    braves14 Says:

    Kotsay and Prado are due to return.

  33. 33
    braves14 Says:

    I wonder why the Braves won’t DL Infante. Pulled hammys don’t heal overnight. They need to get someone else up.

  34. 34
    Smitty Says:

    Because they are going to put Chipper on the DL and activate Kotsay on Tuesday

  35. 35
    Rob Cope Says:

    This settles it. I’m benching Chipper and starting Evan Longoria. Should have done that last week. Longoria had a huge week. Oh well.

  36. 36
    DJ Says:

    I honestly don’t care if Gotay doesn’t clear waivers. We already have a switch hitter bench player: Greg Norton. He’s not great, but he’s better than Gotay.
    The comment about R-Braves been picked dry is pretty accurate. Your power bat in Richmond is Scott Thorman…awesome.

  37. 37
    DJ Says:

    Off topic, but I saw Brayan Pena is now with KC. Did we trade him, or did the Royals pick him off the waiver wire?

  38. 38
    braves14 Says:

    They should DL Infante in addition to Chipper.

  39. 39
    braves14 Says:

    They got him on waivers.

  40. 40
    kc Says:

    Please be patient with Brandon Jones. He is still a much better hitter than Frenchy.

  41. 41
    kc Says:

    I think Tony LaRussa would have batted Frenchy ninth if Frenchy is with the Cardinals…wait…he wouldn’t even be starting…

  42. 42
    billy-jay Says:

    @31, I’m sure they went with that just because he’s cute. If Mac had included an option that said he sucks, but is cute, that’s where those votes would’ve gone.

  43. 43
    billy-jay Says:

    ububba, you were born in Germany? I was born in Heidelberg.

  44. 44
    kc Says:

    Well, the option of “Francoeur doesn’t suck, and he’s cute!” has dropped to 6%!

  45. 45
    csg Says:

    Soriano is our new Hampton….btw, I didnt know he was away from the team for personal reasons. The team also doesnt know when he’ll return

  46. 46
    kc Says:

    Maybe Sori is going home to get some localized treatment on his elbow…I read from somewhere that he will be returned for the Phillies series…not return to pitch, but returning to be with the team.

  47. 47
    urlhix Says:

    Well, a certain percentage of poll answerers are functionally retarded. Not there’s anything wrong with that. Just something to keep in mind when reading polls.

  48. 48
    kc Says:

    urlhix, the poll may also reflect that this webpage has 6% of female readers….let be highlight the word “MAY”…

  49. 49
    urlhix Says:

    So only women think he is “cute”? I don’t think so. I know lots of gay sports fans.

  50. 50
    Lunatic96 Says:

    It’s also possible that some people are answering the poll question facetiously. I know I’ve done it a few times.

  51. 51
    Stephen Says:

    I tried my best to watch both the Braves and Euro 2008 and maybe it says something that the score was same in each game….

    I like Germany, but Torres’ goal was great and since I like Liverpool, I enjoyed it more than I thought.

    To be fair, Jo Jo was fun to watch–particularly because he has grown a great deal in less than a year.

    With respect to Richmond, I would as soon see Thorman return than watch Gotay, Lillibridge or Corky hit. At least with Thorman there is a chance of a HR and the temper tantrums are entertaining as well….

  52. 52
    urlhix Says:

    @50 For sure, I’m guessing that’s why those options are included. Although I try to answer honestly in spite of my inclination to be a smartass.

  53. 53
    billy-jay Says:

    Hell, yeah. Bring back Thor and stick him in LF.

  54. 54
    kc Says:

    The problem with Thor is not he is NOT on the 40-players roster. So, I don’t think the Braves will promote Thor unless there is absolutely no choice. Btw, I don’t think there are much difference between Norton and Thor. So, I don’t want to see Thor. I much prefer the Braves to just stick with Brandon Jones.

  55. 55
    urlhix Says:

    I think I’d rather sign Bonds. Repercussions be damned.

  56. 56
    kc Says:

    Oh, I have mentioned that Bonds guy last month. If a team is looking for offense, there is no doubt THAT guy will bring offense. Even if he doesn’t hit, at least he will draw plenty of walks…unlike Frenchy, who sucks.

  57. 57
    Smitty Says:

    IF we sign Bonds, we win the East and are the favorites to go to the Serise.

  58. 58
    Stephen Says:

    Brandon Jones should be given every opportunity to play LF–but I would not be surprised to see his production go down after the league has seen a bit more of him.

    That is not to say that Jones isn’t a solid prospect, but I think he will be challenged in the near future….

    KC–good point about Thor–but I still wouldn’t mind seeing him back in Atlanta before too much longer….

  59. 59
    Smitty Says:

    Wow, it has gotten to the point where we are begging for Thorman.

  60. 60
    Hiawatha Terrell Wade Says:

    I hear Brian Jordan has been working out fervently…

  61. 61
    c. shorter Says:

    Steve Phillips mentioning the 23 straight 1 run road losses on baseball tonight. Having him say it makes it sound even worse. ugh.

  62. 62
    Stephen Says:

    I need to get my bowl and beg…after a weekend of Gotay, Norton, Lillibridge and the Prince of Suckage, well what can I say….

  63. 63
    jj3bagger Says:

    I’m disappointed “I blame a cold and unfeeling universe” wasn’t a choice for this poll question.

    But I’m actually quite depressed right now, because I just read two articles about two of my top 5 favorite athletes of all-time that both mentioned the “r word,” John Smoltz and Joe Sakic. I know there aren’t very many people besides ububba here that will read this that care about hockey, but I never really quite realized how similar Smoltz and Sakic are. Both have spent their entire pro careers with one organization, both debuting in 1988, both turning down more lucrative offers to join other teams. As a kid, both were never my favorite players on each team (Chipper Jones and Peter Forsberg), or necessarily the most talented players on each team throughout their careers, but both players that I have grown more respect for each and every year as I have grown older.

    Admittedly, it got a little dusty around here looking at that picture of Smoltzie in that contraption his has to wear now watching that little kid pitch in his camp. I really hope that John has not thrown his last pitch in a Braves uniform or Super Joe has not scored his last goal in an Avs uniform.

    I think I’m getting old. That’s the moral of this story.

  64. 64
    ububba Says:

    jj3bag,
    Even though the Avalanche broke my heart in 2001—I’m a Devils fan—I always had a ton of respect for Sakic (and Forsberg, actually). I guess the Devil who would be most like Smoltz would be Brodeur.

    Well, actually, scratch that. Now that I’m thinking about it—the whole picture on & off the field/ice—Marty’d be more like Chipper. Still not so bad.

    Also, jj3bag, I’m gonna be shipping out that box to you soon. I’ve also found a few trinkets from Turner Field, etc., that I’ll throw in there.

    Getting close to the end with this move, but I’m still going through household items & I found a real treasure today: The SI issue of Hank Aaron’s HR 715. I’ve kept that thing for 34 years. I must be nuts.

  65. 65
    kc Says:

    The Prince of Suckage…I really like that…

  66. 66
    Stephen Says:

    I am happy to say that the word Suckage is one that I learned on Braves Journal. And here it truly fits….

  67. 67
    Stephen Says:

    Here is something related to what we were talking about the other day–a comparison of Frenchy the Cody Johnson:

    Frenchy/.294/.385/.239

    Cody Johnson /.303/.433/.238

    Johnson has struggled all season, but seems to be getting a bit better. My sense is that he has even begun to cut back on his strikeouts.

    On the other hand, the Prince of Suckage…well, what can we say…

  68. 68
    kc Says:

    Maybe Frenchy should have picked football…

  69. 69
    Stephen Says:

    Yeah, maybe. The main thing is that he has actually regressed…the DL or some kind of LOA would be best for him and the Braves. Naturally, he will start just about every game….

  70. 70
    kc Says:

    I think a two-week vacation at Richmond would be perfect for him. Brandon can handle rightfield.

  71. 71
    jj3bagger Says:

    ububba, I know you’re a Devils fan, I’ll send you my ’01 Cup Video in return. Just kidding, That Game 7 is one of the few moments along with the ’95 WS where I know exactly where I was at when it happened. I have to say that I don’t hate Marty but he is a helluva goalie, I hate the trap and the style of play (which is not on him, that’s just what they did to win cups), more than anything. It set back hockey decades. Just kidding. Brodeur and his style of puck handling was Roy like in that it I’m sure gave you a heart attack sometimes. I never thought about the comparison to Chipper until now, but I know they’re not the only two to cheat on their wifes in profession sports. That’s a little rough with your sister in saw compared to a Hooters waitress, but you know, it happens I guess.

  72. 72
    Stephen Says:

    KC–Do you really think that two weeks at Richmond would be enough?

    I fear that some of his bad habits are deeply ingrained…

  73. 73
    oldtimer? Says:

    Joe Sakic was a great hockey player, that is a great comparison with him and Smoltz.
    I am a Bruins fan and would take the Devils trap system(which was taken from the 70’s Montreal Canadiens teams) and their multiple cups any day. The Last time the B’s won the cup was ten days before I was born. Feel a little like a Cubs fan, 36 years is a long time with no championships.
    Have gone to several Devils Cup games, to be at a live hockey game is incredible, if you have not done it, you should give it a try.

  74. 74
    Seat Painter Says:

    Francoeur delenda Richmond? Is that Latin for ‘Send him down?’

    Having him continue to play, even with a lack of viable replacement options, does not do him any good, and may, in fact, result in long-term harm. Send him down now, and he might be able to get his head on straight.

  75. 75
    bfan Says:

    Just sending Frenchie down without a plan makes no sense. As a minor leaguer, he had no strike-out judgment either; minor league pitchers just didn’t have the sense or ability to throw the ball 5 inches off the plate, and they threw more mistakes, which Frenchie can hit. All sending Frenchie down would do would be to expose him to the same mistakes, which he can succeed upon.

    I am not sure you can teach a 24 year old some pitch selction, but that is what needs to happen; not just go pound some weak AAA pitching for 3 weeks-that will not change anything at the MLB level.

  76. 76
    Parish Says:

    If I may explore a non-Francoeurian theme, which of the young pitchers do you all think has the highest ceiling?

    If I were to rank them, I think I would go:

    1. Reyes
    2. Morton (based on scouting reports)
    3. Jurrjens (poise and consistency)
    4. Hanson (worried about the GO/AO)
    5. James

    I did not put Campillo in there, as he is a little older. I think he has already reached his ceiling, but I would still put him ahead of Chuck James.

    Am I leaving anyone out?

  77. 77
    Stephen Says:

    Parish–Great question! It depends how far you want to go down into the system. There are several pitchers with very high ceilings below AA in the Braves’ system.

    Since ceiling is theoretical my ranking might be:

    Hanson
    Morton
    Reyes
    Jurrjens

    I would not put Chuck James on the list because I fear that he has already peaked.

    I like Hanson’s ceiling–but he is the most incomplete; Morton has great potential as well; Reyes looks great, but needs more consistency and my ranking is unfair to Jurrjens who is already a good pitcher, with the chance to get a lot better.

    The good news is that any way you look at it the Braves have four valuable arms. If they continue to develop, the next decade could be more fun than the present for Braves’s fans.

    Add the following : Parr, Redmond, Heath, Cofield, Vines, Diamond, Osuna, Rohrbough, Barrett (thought this one now worries me), Lokce, Evarts, Rodgers, Ortegano, Teheran, the Delgados and one has to like the arms the Braves have stockpiled. If we can sign DeVall, Stovall and Thompson, it would be nice–but the Braves have already gained some pitchers from the draft.

    Sure most of these pitchers (all who have nice ceilings) will not make it, but there are some real grounds for optimism….

    By the way, Michael Timms has gotten 8 outs and 7 of them were Ks….

  78. 78
    Marc Schneider Says:

    Frankly, one of the problems with the Braves is Chipper. As good as he is, it’s pretty clear he is never going to be healthy again; he is essentially a 120-130 game player. One thing the Braves might consider is simply conceding he isn’t going to play 150 games and just giving him a day off every week and hope that speading out his absences is less devastating than missing 20 games in a row, which looks like what is going to happen now. Another solution is to move him to first base but the simply begs the question of who plays third and it doesn’t necessarily insure that he will be healthier.

    But if people are really talking about “blowing up the team” it seems to me the Chipper is the place to start. At this point, it seems he would be better off as a DH and he is still good enough (and has a reasonable enough contract) that you could probably get a lot for him. Now, this could not be done at the trading deadline because you would have to convince Chipper to go but I think Chipper would bring a lot more in return than trading two months of Teixera or anyone else. I’m not advocating this because I don’t advocate blowing up the team whatever that means but if you are serious, this seems to me to be where you need to start.

    But I suspect that, despite how frustrating this season has been, the Braves are not that far away from being good. It’s probably not going to be this year but this young pitching and some solid young players (sans Francouer obviously) is definitely a positive. What they need, obviously, is to send Francouer to the Cylons and find some pop in the outfield. And I think they will need to find a way to handle Chipper’s health issues better–hoping against hope that he will play 150 games isn’t working.

    Another things about Francouer. He is going through a severe slump that is compounded by his lack of plate discipline but is not necessarily only caused by that. He just isn’t this bad normally. I think his problems at this point are more than just not being selective. I think pitchers pretty much know by now what he cannot hit. Just because you miss a pitch doesn’t mean it was a bad pitch to swing at. I suspect it’s not just a matter of swinging at bad pitches but also not hitting pitches that he should be hitting.

  79. 79
    Ben Says:

    chipper goes on the dl at least once a season. betemit used to fill in nicely. at least we traded him for pieces to the puzzle. lol

    sorry i just have to point out once a season that betemit was a good utility player and the braves made a mistake.

    can we revoke francoeurs parking pass to the stadium? maybe thats a way to keep him away.

  80. 80
    chris Says:

    chipper to where?

    has to be an AL team with a stockpile of good pieces (CWS??? Angels!!!!!) in the minors but is in “win now”mode.

    actually, we could get alot for him, but not as much as you might expect.

  81. 81
    Marc Schneider Says:

    Well, yes, it would have to be a team looking to win now but not necessarily a one-season deal. Chipper can still hit and he isn’t that old; the problem with trading Teixera is that he is almost certainly going to test free agency after the season so why would you give up much for him?

    Again, I’m not advocating trading Chipper but just saying that he is probably the most valuable asset they have (assuming you aren’t going to trade the young players.)

  82. 82
    ryan c Says:

    “actually, we could get alot for him, but not as much as you might expect.”

    what does this even mean? if chipper made a decision to become a full-time dh, he could easily put up 35 hr 120 rbi .350 batting average and .430 obp. that being said, chipper would bring in a TON of talent but i, personally, would never trade chipper. he’s a brave and hopefully retires a brave.

  83. 83
    Stephen Says:

    Here, here,….the idea of Chipper in another uniform is just about offensive to me….

  84. 84
    Marc Schneider Says:

    I don’t think the Braves should trade Chipper either. But I think they have to be smarter with him and, as I said, not engage in wishful thinking that he is going to play 150 games.

  85. 85
    mraver Says:

    Chipper isn’t going anywhere. He doesn’t want to. The Braves don’t want him to. The fans don’t…. Why would ANYONE think he’s going to get traded? If he doesn’t want to move to 1B, why would he want to move to DH?

    Frankly, I’m with Stephen. The idea that the Braves would trade him offends me a little bit.

    And you want to know what the “problem” with this team is? The “problem” is that FIVE of the nine players in our lineup this weekend were worse of lower quality than one of our bench players. We were missing four regulars and the best bat we have off the bench. Francoeur aside, the Braves have a top-tier lineup (when it’s healthy) now that Tex is hitting. Take the first, 5th, 6th, and 7th,and 8th best hitters out of, say, the Redsox or Cubs lineup, then replace them with AAA guys and see how good it is. This isn’t a problem with roster construction or anything like that. It’s five position-player injuries overlapping. So what we do is, take the positives (quality pitching this weekend, Tex hitting, Gregor Blanco turning things around a bit) and move on.

    Anyhow, I’m just eager for Kotsay to return. At least we’ll have someone who can hit in the 2-hole instead of Reuben Gotay (who has as so ably turned it into a Frenchy-quality black hole). Then, maybe Diaz comes back and doesn’t suck, and allofasudden, we’ve got a decent bat against LHP. And a guy with enough of an arm for RF.

    *sigh*

    I want a Ryan Ludwick. :-(

  86. 86
    Parish Says:

    Mraver, you’re right. This season is the result of a ridiculous amount of injuries. But, we could have said that last season and the season before. Maybe, it’s that our core is getting too old.

    That, and we have Mike Hampton.

  87. 87
    Ben Says:

    What is amazing is that if the Braves still played in the NL West they would only be 1.5 games out of first and in second place in the division. Now that’s a terrible division.

  88. 88
    csg Says:

    Im ready for Gotay to get his release. The guy does nothing very well, but it’ll be a while.

    The website says that it’ll probably be Lilli and Brandon that get sent back to make room for Prado and Kotsay. That might be delayed though if Chip and Infante go on the DL

  89. 89
    Marc Schneider Says:

    The Braves were struggling even before the injuries. Yes, at this point, the injuries are a factor but it’s not the sole factor.

    I’m not sure of the exact figures, but since 2006, the Braves had had something like 5 winning months (out of a possible 15 not counting partial months). They had two last year and one so far this year and I assume they didn’t have many in 2006. This is a team that has struggled for three years. Teixera is starting to hit but he has struggled most of the first half, especially against lefties. And, of course, right field is a black hole.

    As for the core of the team, it’s actually getting younger other than Chipper. The problem is, really, that we don’t have Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Justice, Gant, Sheffield, et al. anymore.

    Moreover, even though this is an intangible that is considered verboten by sabermetric types, I think there is something to the idea that teams have to learn how to win. Winning becomes a habit and so does losing. This group, I think, is certainly trying as hard as they can but they have become accostomed to losing.

  90. 90
    Joshua Says:

    Mark,

    Injuries are the SOLE factor at this point. We were struggling b/c the offense was so inconsistent early on. But Kotsay had finally picked it up and KJ was much better, and now Tex is hitting. You can’t tell me if we had all of them in there now – along with Chipper that we wouldn’t be in 1st place now. Our starting pitching has been beyond terrific. If we had any offense at all, nobody could touch us.

  91. 91
    Parish Says:

    Marc, the Braves did seem to find a way to win regardless of talent or adversity. Bobby Cox deserves some of that credit as does the pitching of Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine.

  92. 92
    billy-jay Says:

    I’m cool with signing Barry Bonds.

    I’m not cool with trading Chipper.

  93. 93
    Joshua Says:

    @92 – I second that.

  94. 94
    csg Says:

    what amazes me is that when we’re fully healthy we are a .500 team and have been since 06. when we lose 5 or 6 of our key players, we’re still a .500 team. This is an above average team that doesnt perform when its fully healthy, plenty of potential, but cant get the job done. They do just enough to keep in the race and keep hope in their fans and then dwindle off after the trade deadline.

  95. 95
    Parish Says:

    Remind me – when were we fully healthy?

  96. 96
    csg Says:

    offensively, we were all healthy to start the season (well other than Infante)

    nevermind, lets just say we are a .500 team no matter who we have on the field

  97. 97
    Adam M Says:

    I don’t think this was a .500 team right now. I think it was a .500 team when Chipper was healthy. Forget all the other numbers: the record doesn’t lie. The Braves were mediocre before so there is no possible way anyone can substantially argue that injuries are the sole problem. This board has been lit up all season with people complaining about the mediocrity of the team, Wren’s lack of ability to land a right-handed power bat, no backup shortstop, Bobby’s bizarre bullpen management, the bunting, etc. None of that has to do with injuries. Of course, the injuries to Chipper and Yunel are a big part of this weekend’s horrible offense, but ‘hibernation mode’ was coined long before their injuries.

  98. 98
    Marc Schneider Says:

    I agree with Parish about Bobby Cox, but, let’s face it, the Braves had more talent in those days than they do now. The Braves were far and away the best team in the NL for at least 10 years even though, obviously, they didn’t go to 10 World Series. They also had a good run of luck in that they didn’t have a great number of injuries. These things run in cycles, I guess.

    Joshua,

    Maybe you are correct that the Braves would be in first place if they didn’t have all the injuries. But all I know is that they had opportunities to take off before the injuries and didn’t do it. And it’s not as if the Braves offense hasn’t been getting shut down a lot even after getting Teixera. They struggled against lefties last year, lost a lot of one-run games because they couldn’t get key hits, etc. And, if Mark Kotsay has now become a key component, what does that say about the team?

    And, I’m sorry for starting the “trade Chipper” meme. I was just using it to point out that is what blowing up the team would really entail.

  99. 99
    billy-jay Says:

    Marc, no sweat, man. For the record, I think you’re right. I just don’t want to see that happen.

  100. 100
    Parish Says:

    I keep seeing people saying we are better off holding on to Tex and getting the draft picks.

    What do we get for a type A free agent? I know we get a first rounder (if 16-30) or a supplemental round pick if the acquiring team had a higher pick. But, what is the 2nd pick?

    Whatever it is, it seems unlikely that those two picks would prove more valuable than a trio of prospects whose future is a little more predictable.

    The only reason to keep Tex should we fall further out of it is to protect Chipper in a quest for a batting title. For that to be worthwhile, we would need a healthy Chipper and a true “protection effect.”

  101. 101
    ububba Says:

    Billy-Jay,
    Yup, born in Frankfurt. I’m an Army brat. Both my parents were in the service, but back in those days, to quote Cheap Trick, “mommy served as a WAC” (Women’s Army Corps).

    jj3bag/oldtimer,
    Yup, the trap was something brought over from Montreal by Devs coach/former Canadien Jacques LeMaire.

    It was integral to New Jersey’s titles in ’95 & ’03, but they didn’t use it exclusively in the finals runs in ’00 & ’01. That team could play any way you wanted. It could outgun you or outhit you. It was a legit 4 lines deep—everybody could score. Those teams didn’t really trap you until it got very late in the game & they were leading.

    It should also be noted that those Detroit teams of ’97 & ’98 used a variation of the trap, but nobody gave them a hard time for it.

    But I don’t care. You never have to apologize for winning.

  102. 102
    Stu Says:

    What do we get for a type A free agent? I know we get a first rounder (if 16-30) or a supplemental round pick if the acquiring team had a higher pick. But, what is the 2nd pick?

    You get the supplemental first-rounder either way. If the team that signs him picks in the top half of the first round, you get their second-rounder instead of their first-rounder in addition to the supplemental pick.

  103. 103
    csg Says:

    was there a reason that Chip didnt hit for Norton in the 9th yesterday? we had Escobar eligible to pinch run for Chipper if he would’ve reached.

    I was pretty pissed watching Norton and Frenchy taking those fastballs right down the middle

  104. 104
    billy-jay Says:

    I’m an army brat, too. My dad played saxophone in the army band at the time. Oddly enough, he’s back in the army now.

  105. 105
    Parish Says:

    Thanks.

    So, can I guess that would be two picks in the 40-50 range on average? Is it safe to say that there are at least 300 players of that quality in the minor leagues at any time?

    We would definitely get more in a trade, I think, if it came to that.

  106. 106
    barrycuda Says:

    Hmmmmmmmmm …………i wonder if Frenchy still wants to play QB at Clemson? maybe then my Seminoles could beat them. he seems to be just hardheaded enough to keep throwing the ball into tight coverage.

  107. 107
    Stu Says:

    Francoeur was going to play safety at Clemson.

  108. 108
    Marc Schneider Says:

    Parish,

    I’m not convinced you would get more than a couple of mid-level prospects at this point for Tex. Those might indeed be marginally more valuable than the draft picks. However, if the Braves are not really out of it, which it seems impossible to be, I think it sends a bad message to the players and fans to just give up. I know the White Sox did it several years ago but I don’t know if it really helped them in the long run. On the other hand, if the Phillies were to sweep the Braves this week, I think Wren would have to seriously consider at least seeing what is out there for Tex.

  109. 109
    csg Says:

    Jason Perry watch, season totals AA and AAA

    75H 18HR 55RBI .318/.418/.631/1.050OPS

    28yrs old or not, he deserves a shot with this offense the way it is

    as for Thorman, hitting .228 in June isnt helping him at all. The 7 hr’s are nice, but his average has become scary at all levels

  110. 110
    Douglass Says:

    I’ve heard the “Frenchy was gonna play safety at Clemson” thing said so many times during his career, but after watching him play baseball for the past 4 years, I just have to wonder how anyone that slow could play anywhere on the field in D1 football (except QB I guess.), let alone a DB. I have no idea what his 40 time is, but it is readily apparent to all watching that the kid is slow as christmas.

  111. 111
    csg Says:

    #67- how can you compare numbers with one player in A ball and one player in the majors?

  112. 112
    Parish Says:

    By the way, there is more angst today in the Detroit Free Press about trading Jurrjens away.

  113. 113
    Parish Says:

    Stephen – back to the young pitching talent.

    I had considered listing some of the other AA guys since I had Hanson on the list. Where would you put Heath, Parr, Redmond. and Cuevas? I am thinking they all would be after Chuck James.

  114. 114
    Douglass Says:

    LOL.

    Just checked on rivals and saw that Frenchy claimed a 4.5 40 out of high school. I know he hadn’t put on the weight he has now at that point yet, but I’m calling MAJOR bullshit. I bet Frenchy is more in the 4.8, 4.9 range these days.

    edit: link: http://rivals100.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?Sport=1&pr_key=697

  115. 115
    ububba Says:

    FWIW, I’ m hearing Met trade talk about Raul Ibanez. As long as Ryan Church can still say his name, they’d put Ibanez in LF. (The Alou wait is over.) Dunno if they’d have enough prospects to offer Seattle, however.

    billy-jay,
    My dad was infantry, so I grew up near Ft. Benning.

    Sax, huh? Quite a gig. If you’re gonna be in the service, I’d say playing saxophone is probably preferable to playing tail gunner.

    And, in his official capacity, I would imagine he plays way more Sousa than Coltrane.

  116. 116
    Mike Says:

    So Griffey is hitting .234 with 9 home runs and could start in the all star game this year. I think the NL could have a shot this year, but an outfield with Fukudome and Griffey would hurt a bit.

  117. 117
    Stephen Says:

    Parish–I don’t know nearly enough about these pitchers. My sense is the Cuevas has as a high a ceiling as Hanson–but a very low probability of getting even close to it. In addition, he has lost a good bit of time and is not really young. I would compare Redmond to HoRam, which is not an insult, but not much of an endorsement either. I have really liked Parr a lot–but his progress has been slowed. He is athletic and competitive and with his make-up I suspect that he is undervalued. Heath hit a wall last year at the Beach and has pitched quite well at times this season. To summarize, I think that Cuevas probablyhas the best arm and the rest are #4 or #5 starters (though I hold out the hope that Parr can be a#3)–if they make it at all.

    Where would you then put them in relation to Chuck James? I see a healthy James as no more than a #4–if not a #5.

    How might you rank them?

  118. 118
    ububba Says:

    Chuck James?

    Oh, now I remember Chuck James…

    Funny thing about Chuck James is that, when I’m mentally listing all the injuries on this team, I always forget about him. I wonder why…

  119. 119
    Parish Says:

    Well, I am kinda not answering my original question as it was about “ceiling,” but this is more about where I think these guys end up.

    I think Chuck James will prove to be better than all of them. Otherwise, they go in this order:

    1. Heath – after watching him this year, I feel almost certain that he will make the bigs, but as a middle reliever and I don’t know how long he will stick.

    2. Cuevas – I followed him back when he was lights out in the Appy League. I don’t think he has been totally healthy since. The fact that the Braves protected him in Rule V over Diory Hernandez and Dan Smith should say something, though.

    3. Redmond – admittedly, I do not know as much about him.

    4. Parr – I have never seen what others have in this kid.

    I might be more hopeful about Kris Medlen’s future as a starter than any of these guys.

  120. 120
    Seat Painter Says:

    I expect the Braves had decided yesterday that Chipper was likely to be DLed today, so they didn’t pinch-hit him so they could make the DL retroactive.

    Francoeur delenda Richmond, btw.

  121. 121
    Bethany Says:

    Can I ask why there are so many here who think Chuck is going to be good? Granted, all I have seen of him was at the major league level, but still… He only throws two pitches, neither of them with command. Am I missing something?

  122. 122
    Douglass Says:

    Francoeur delenda Richmond isn’t working, guys.

  123. 123
    Marc Schneider Says:

    How soon they forget . . . that Chuck James was the one that stopped the 10 game losing streak in Tampa a couple of years ago. Of course, it was probably good that he wasn’t pitching against the current Tampa Bay lineup.

  124. 124
    Ben Says:

    In re: hypothetical Chipper deal…The only teams that would be interested in Chipper are in the American League so they could use him as a DH. However, if I was a GM I wouldn’t touch him with a ten-foot pole. Yes, he has put together some good offense over the last 4 or 5 years, but he has been extremely injury-prone. Personally, I think his body has gotten to the point where he may play one more year and then retire. It’s probably been good that Chipper has been so injury-prone so no other teams would want to gamble on him and the Braves can safely keep him. As a 10-5 guy, I don’t think he would okay a trade anyway.

    As far as signing Bonds, let’s go for it. We already have Frenchy taking up a spot. I swear, someone connected to the front office must be writing a dissertation where the crux of the paper relies on Frenchy playing no matter how bad he sucks.

  125. 125
    Stephen Says:

    Cuevas’ Appalachian year established very high expectations; my gut feeling is that the Braves see him as an underachiever and will try to handle him as they did Morton. That is, despite bad or unimpressive numbers they will promote him on the basis of his stuff–and hope for the best.

    I think that he has started to rehab and we should see him at AA during the second half of the season….

  126. 126
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Well, it’s a nonsense phrase. I don’t know Latin, but I know that “est” is the verb in the sentence, and “Richmond” is not a verb. What we need is a translation for “Francoeur must be sent to Richmond”.

  127. 127
    Douglass Says:

    Actually, “delenda est” is the verb in the sentence.

  128. 128
    Stu Says:

    LOL.

    Just checked on rivals and saw that Frenchy claimed a 4.5 40 out of high school. I know he hadn’t put on the weight he has now at that point yet, but I’m calling MAJOR bullshit. I bet Frenchy is more in the 4.8, 4.9 range these days.

    When Francoeur was drafted, people thought he had 30/30 potential. It may seem odd now, but he really was pretty fast in high school. I don’t think that 4.5 number is very far off of what he was really running in those days.

  129. 129
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I said I don’t know Latin! Anyway, we could invent a “to be sent to Richmond” verb. “Francoeur Richmonda est” is still nonsense, but it’s better nonsense.

  130. 130
    c. shorter Says:

    Ad Richmond Francoeurum mittere habemus.

    except that is active voice “we must” instead of the passive “must be sent” and the mittere habemus is a later form, so it’s not classical latin. ugh, i took an intensive latin course only a summer ago and can’t remember anything (including whether the preposition “ad” indicates dative or accusative usage…)

  131. 131
    Douglass Says:

    Hah, truth be told, not to rain on our parade, but “Francoeur delenda est” isn’t even right.

    Carthage is a feminine noun, thus making the participal form of delenda also feminine, but with francoeur, I believe it would be:

    “Francoeur delendus est”

    As far as must be sent to Richmond, I think that would go something like.

    “Ad Richmond Francoeur missendus est.”

    Though in Latin it would probably be something like:

    “Ad Richmondum Francoeurus missendus est.”

  132. 132
    mraver Says:

    Of all the thing we can criticize Frenchy over, his athleticism has got to be on the bottom of the list….

  133. 133
    c. shorter Says:

    douglass, fancy… i couldn’t remember the passive at all

    mittere does seem like an apt choice of verb
    mitto
    V
    send| throw| hurl| cast; let out| release| dismiss; disregard

    the “delenda est” agreement issue has been discussed before and Mac stuck with the “delenda” because it was a famous phrase rather than getting into the grammar. if i remember correctly

  134. 134
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I am aware of the feminine/masculine thing, but to be honest I didn’t feel that Redman (the original target) deserved masculinization.

    While we’re at it, we could translate Richmond (Riche Monte) and Francoeur (I assume that the first element would be “Frank”, the tribal name, and the second coeur, “Heart”).

  135. 135
    Douglass Says:

    C. Shorter,

    While your grammar is fine. That doesn’t make sense in Latin.

    You are transposing an idiomatic use of “have” in English that doesn’t apply to Latin. habeo does mean loosely “to have or hold”, and using that word, your Latin would translate to “We have to send Francoeur to Richmond.” Without any endings for Francoeur, though, there is no way to tell if he is the subject or an object of the sentence, and as I said above, you are misusing habeo, albeit it seems like it makes sense to an English speaker.

  136. 136
    Stu Says:

    Latin, lol

  137. 137
    Douglass Says:

    The funny thing about “Carthago delenda est.” is that while it is an unquestionably a famous Latin phrase. It’s actually a pretty complex grammatical construction, one with a horrifying name:

    It’s the Passive Periphrastic Conjugation, which is constructed by using the gerundive form of the verb + the appropriate form of sum following the subject. It expresseses necessity, obligation, or in some sophisticated cases, persuasion.

  138. 138
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Hampton had surgery to correct a Passive Periphrastic Conjugation last month.

  139. 139
    MGL Says:

    Has anyone seen the stats for Reid Gorecki at Miss? He is a RH OF, with BA .340, OBP .395, SLG .495. A Minor league free agent picked up from the Cards in May. He had washed out for some reason. Wonder if he is fixed and could platoon with Frenchy. btw, night stats are significantly better thyan day.

  140. 140
    c. shorter Says:

    135
    douglass, you’re right… the use of habere to indicate obligation is not classical latin. It’s comes into use much later and is probably a vulgarized form. it’s stuck around in a number of romance languages. it’s also the basis for the future form for many romance languages (which is why the “endings” you put on romance verbs sure look a lot like “habere” conjugated … after much phonological change).

  141. 141
    c. shorter Says:

    using debere with the infinitive was another late modal verb used for obligation that has stuck around in romance languages as well.

  142. 142
    Mac Thomason Says:

    So, what would “God’s Peace” (which is what “Jeffrey” means, maybe) be in Latin? I know deus and pacem but no idea how to put them together for a name.

  143. 143
    Smitty Says:

    Chuck James sucks until he learns a third pitch. I hope he is working on one now.

  144. 144
    c. shorter Says:

    and…

    ite Braves!

    (man, can’t even remember if that’s the right command form)

  145. 145
    Douglass Says:

    the possessive of deus for a masculine object would be dei (Think “Opus Dei” from the DaVinci code: The work of god)

  146. 146
    Mac Thomason Says:

    And yes, we’ve now spent 20-odd comments talking about Latin grammar. I’m enjoying this.

  147. 147
    c. shorter Says:

    douglass… God’s peace? pacem dei?

    i’m going to stop trying now… just can’t remember enough.

  148. 148
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Deipacemus?

  149. 149
    Douglass Says:

    Also, “pacem” is an accusative (direct object and certain preopositions) form of “pax” (nominative)

    the famous phrase/song: Dona nobis pacem.

    nobis – dative, indirect object – us
    dona – vocative/imperative form of dono – to give
    pacem – accusative, direct object – peace

    Give peace to us.

  150. 150
    c. shorter Says:

    Back to reading about the Italian comic-realistic sonnets of the 13th century.

    Forza Braves!

  151. 151
    Douglass Says:

    So it would be “Pax dei”

    Paxdei?

  152. 152
    Marc Schneider Says:

    I bet they aren’t having arguments on Latin usage on Mets Blog.

    I disagree that Chipper is near the end. I suspect that his injuries are largely from playing in the field, which requires bending, twisting, quick stops and starts, etc. A lot of his injuries have come while in the field. If he was just hitting, I bet he wouldn’t be injured nearly as much (although I realize it is possible to get injured hitting). Remember, too, that as purely a DH he would presumably be able to play with injuries that would keep him from playing in the field. I think he could have several productive years as a DH although I doubt that he would ever want to do it.

  153. 153
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Then Deipaxus? Okay, that leaves “Frankish Heart” for the surname.

  154. 154
    Seat Painter Says:

    OK, I officially apologize for The Latin Digression. Hmm, Latin Digression – didn’t Hampton get a bad case of that in 2005?

    Edit: It may be nonsense, but it’s MY nonsense, so –

    Francoeur delenda Richmond. Nyah, nyah.

    (What did the Romans ever do for us anyway????)

  155. 155
    Douglass Says:

    Pax is actually a 3rd declension noun (the -us ending is second declension…in Latin it’s not as simple as masculine/feminine…not even close), so the nominative singular (standard/base) form of pax is just “pax” no -us.

  156. 156
    CharlesP Says:

    The “I bet they aren’t having arguments on Latin usage on Mets Blog.” comment made my day… thanks Marc. Luckily no boss was walking by to hear my snort/laugh.

  157. 157
    Mac Thomason Says:

    But if “Pax” is part of a personal name, wouldn’t the name take a personal ending? I seem to recall some “-pacia” female names. Or maybe that’s just pharmaceuticals.

  158. 158
    CharlesP Says:

    Seat, they gave us Beat on the Brat and Sheena is a Punk Rocker…. oh wait… you said Romans, not Ramones. Sorry… Never mind.

  159. 159
    Douglass Says:

    Re: Francoeurs last name?

    Do we know for sure that the “coeur” derives from the latin for “heart” I know that the “cor” root comes from Latin (not sure exactly of the Latin word off the top of my head), but I’ve always considered Francoeur being more derived some frenchified form of the Franc-
    like the possessive form for exacmple “Francorum” “of the Franks”

    That’s how I’ve always interpreted it. If you know differently, then I’m open to that for sure.

    So I guess the most accurate I could suggest is:

    Paxdei Francorum

  160. 160
    Parish Says:

    People seem to forget that Chuck James was good just a year ago, still quite young and inexperienced. He has shown the ability to get major league hitters out.

    While my expectation is not high for him, I do believe that James can be a decent 4th or 5th starter in a big league rotation. My ranking his future above most of the starters at Pearl is more a statement about those starters than it is about Chuck James being all that.

  161. 161
    ububba Says:

    How do you say “Pinhead” in Latin?

  162. 162
    Douglass Says:

    Good point Mac. That would indeed be the case.

    But if you add the dei or deorum (god’s or gods’) to the end of it, then it would no longer be the ending….either way, it works.

  163. 163
    Mac Thomason Says:

    This says “Open Heart” — the word “frank” has a lot of related meanings.

  164. 164
    Kevin Lee Says:

    Can we translate “I came, I saw, I grounded out?”

  165. 165
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Veni, vidi, Frenchi.

  166. 166
    c. shorter Says:

    164,165 — hilarious

  167. 167
    Douglass Says:

    Aliquando bonus dormitat Coxus.

  168. 168
    Marc Schneider Says:

    @156,

    Charles,

    From what I see, they have enough trouble with English.

  169. 169
    MGL Says:

    After the Latin lessons, could one of you experts please check out my #139 post? I’m curious about your opinions.

  170. 170
    Douglass Says:

    (The above is a parody of another famous latin phrase: “Aliquando bonus dormitat Homerus.” which translates to something like “Sometimes even the great Homer is lazy.” It’s said to be one of the first/root expressions of “You can’t win em all.”)

  171. 171
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Gorecki (Gorecius) is just a guy. He’s hitting .340, but that’s not sustainable, and his career average is .264. There’s a minor improvement in his strikeout rate, but it’s not very much, and really he’s just lucky.

  172. 172
    Cliff Says:

    The Coeur is French for heart. In Latin it is closer to cardium (others of you will know better).

    I believe, but certainly can’t prove, that the Fran at the beginning is intended to referene the Frankish roots of many French people. Therefore, adopting the name (last names were largely unknown until Late Middle Ages / early Renaissance) probably was either (1) a reward for great service bestowed by someone in a position of higher place (king to Duke, Dke to knight, whatever) or (2) a name “picked” because somebody in the background liked it at a time when last names were becokming necessary or usual.

  173. 173
    hankonly Says:

    It had been a tough week. Tough year, really.

    My sales were down. The wife hasn’t been interested for awhile now. The martinis are tasting good but at some level I know I’m just enjoying the early, pleasurable moments of masochism.

    Damn. Just damn.

    But there she was. With the raw appeal of a finely-aged Pamela Anderson. Amazingly, she’s looking at me. Almost begging me with her eyes to take her. Me?!

    You’d better believe I’ll take her. Just exactly what I need right now. Been so long since I saw fireworks on a regular basis.

    I’ll just march over there and get this party started. What could it possibly hurt? It’s not like things could be any worse.

    Or could they?

    I know her ex a little. Said the good, as good as it was, was swallowed up by her selfishness – to the point where he felt like he ceased to exist for any reason other than to keep the light on her. Not what I had in mind. And there’s the std rumor ….

    Sigh. Think I’ll pass.

    Damn. Just damn.

  174. 174
    CharlesP Says:

    That is one hell of a segue away from the latin talk from Hank.

  175. 175
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I think it is a parable for the possibility of signing Barry Bonds.

  176. 176
    Douglass Says:

    mind. blown.

  177. 177
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Vote for Hank.

  178. 178
    Nasa from France Says:

    How about Finnish?
    Francoeur täytyy kulkea Richmondlle.
    Or something like that. My Finnish sucks and I have no idea on how to use the allative case on a proper name.

  179. 179
    Cliff Says:

    On the Hall of Fame poll, I don’t get the pick possibilities. There is an inclusion from the Negro Leagues, Josh Gibson, but no Satchel Paige. Because Paige proved himself in MLB at an extremely advanced age, I would have thought he should be included over Gibson.

    However, Gibson has a better plausible claim to “best ever” at his position. The only other is probably Bench.

    I picked 5 of the top eight.

  180. 180
    ububba Says:

    hankonly,
    Sounds like something that went through my mind in college. I ended up with a similar conclusion: “I’ll pass—probably a bad career move.”

    BTW, I like the Bonds analogy.

    And to my ears, Finnish sounds like Martian.

  181. 181
    CharlesP Says:

    Ok NOW I see the Bonds analogy… in light of the Latin 101 class I had forgotten that discussion was even going on (I try and refuse to think that any Braves fan would give it serious consideration).

  182. 182
    ububba Says:

    If I could get in a time machine & watch 2 guys play in person, it probably would be Josh Gibson & Ty Cobb.

  183. 183
    CharlesP Says:

    ububba that is one heck of a painful restriction… two guys? sheesh… how about one game? that way you’re getting 18+ historical figures :D

  184. 184
    Adam M Says:

    I mean, as pissed as some folks would be if the Braves signed Bonds, you’d all watch, right? I’m not advocating it… but it sure would make things more interesting.

    Of course, it’s all moot. Wren has the problem licked with his Francoeur-Kotsay-Blanco outfield. Good times!

  185. 185
    hankonly Says:

    Yeah, I’d watch. But I’d hate myself in the morning.

  186. 186
    Mac Thomason Says:

    If you could see only one game from before you were born/aware of baseball, what would it be? Here’s mine.

  187. 187
    Adam M Says:

    Imagine Bonds and Francoeur on the same team. Bonds would inevitably be walked. Frenchy, batting somewhere after him, would manage to ground into a double play whenever McCann didn’t get Bonds home. In fact, Bonds’ very presence would allow Francoeur that many more opportunities to strand runners. And one of them would be the notoriously surly Bonds, who surely would–eventually–attack Francoeur. The possibilities are really endless.

  188. 188
    Seat Painter Says:

    Oh come on, Walter Johnson with TWICE as many votes as Denton T. Young? Puh-leeze.

    Francoeur delenda Richmond.

  189. 189
    Adam M Says:

    I kind of would have liked to have seen the Giants play the Dodgers on October 3, 1951. But I’m a sap, I guess.

  190. 190
    Rufino Linares Says:

    Probably Ted Williams going yard in his last ever at-bat. Or maybe him taking the eephus pitch deep- wasn’t that an ASG to boot? Or even the doubleheader in 1941 when he went 6-8 to get to .406. Or just him taking BP, it would have to be the Splinter for me…

  191. 191
    ububba Says:

    Charles,
    Well, I’m kind of looking at it like this: You can’t really understand what Cobb meant to the game from the little bit of sped-up film that exists on him. If you believe all that’s been written, he scared the piss out of his teammates & opponents alike. I gotta see that. And there’s just not that much film on Josh Gibson at all.

    I mean, I’ve seen Ruth & Gehrig and those guys & I have a pretty good idea of what they looked like on the field, how they moved, how much better they were than the other guys. For Cobb & Gibson, I can only imagine.

    And if I could go back in time & have an omniscient view of one historical event, that’s easy: The Battle of Little Big Horn.

  192. 192
    CHill Says:

    October 8, 1956. Don Larsen’s perfect game in the World Series. Historical event would be the 3rd day (Pickett’s Charge) at battle of Gettysburg.

  193. 193
    jschneider Says:

    #152- Chipper would find a way to get hurt.

  194. 194
    Mark Grogan Says:

    It was a long time between pennants for the Indians.

  195. 195
    'Rissa Says:

    As a current Latin minor (perhaps raising that up to another major…we’ll see), I have gotten a kick out of this thread. Latinizing Francoeur’s name was amazing, but veni, vidi, Frenchi took the cake. Mac, you done good.

  196. 196
    Smitty Says:

    The Indians won a pennant in 95 and in like 98.

  197. 197
    Cary Says:

    Hi, welcome to Latin Talk, please excuse this brief interruption..

    1) re: Bonds; If we were any other team in MLB (aside from clearly rebuilding teams like the Nats and Royals), I’d advocate acquiring Bonds. You just can’t add a 1.000 OPS bat to your lineup for, essentially, free.
    -However-
    As we are the Atlanta Braves and the face of our franchise is Hammerin’ Hank Aaron, we can’t take a crap in his face by signing Bonds, just can’t. In this case, we need to stand by our man and let the obvious baseball move pass. (Doesn’t Aaron still have a semi-official role with the franchise?)

    2) re: Chipper; I wouldn’t actively look for a trade, and I can’t see the team trading Chipper with his current production and current role with the franchise.
    -However-
    It is interesting to speculate who would be an ideal trading partner. I’m looking clearly at the Tampa Bay Rays. First, they have the #1 minor league system in MLB with several top prospects and more good ones after that. Second, they don’t have a great DH option–currently Eric Hinske. Third, they are good enough to make a run at the World Series this year. It will be the Rays and Red Sox for the next half-decade in the NL East. The Yankees are playing catch-up.

    3) re: Frenchy; Trade him, in my opinion, while people still believe in his tools. Lots of trade options out there I’d think. A change of scenery could be good for him too.

    4) re: Young Braves pitchers; I’m going to go:
    1. Jair Jurrjens (#2 upside/#3 downside)
    2. Tommy Hanson (#2 upside/#3 downside)
    3. Joseph Reyes (#2 upside/#4 downside)
    4. Julio Terehan (#1 upside/RP downside)
    5. Charlie Morton (#3 upside/#5 downside)
    Others–Rohrbaugh, James, Locke, Evarts
    -Which Is Why-
    I would be up for trading someone in the Others range for a Rent-an-OF for this year if we are going to keep Tex… Milton Bradley?

    [Love the new editing feature, Mac!]

  198. 198
    Smitty Says:

    Here is my game:

    http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/excerpts/greatest_games2.stm

  199. 199
    ububba Says:

    Still the best game I ever saw (on TV).

  200. 200
    Jeff M. Says:

    Rangers are not trading with any one this year, and they are not going to trade Bradley. They’ve smelled .500; the owner has few fans remaining and isn’t interested in losing more while giving up a chance to end the season at .500. Moreover, the GM has been burned a few times (he’s young and has traded away some pretty good players, without much in return–though he did okay with the Texiera trade), and his manager hates playing young guys (though he does when there are no other options–sound familiar?). If either Hicks or Daniels were to trade Bradley (who has behaved himself), they would lose 5-10 thousand in attendance and the manager wouldn’t get the blame for a season under .500. Indeed, I think they’d be much more likely to trade Millwood (not that I’m suggesting we go after him). So, in my view Bradley isn’t going anywhere, at least not this season (with the exception of some bad behavior, in which case we wouldn’t want him any way).

  201. 201
    Kyle B. Says:

    Maybe we can trade Francoeur for Langerhans.

  202. 202
    bamachum Says:

    My game:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL197010150.shtml

    I love Brooks Robinson

  203. 203
    Alzheimers'08! Says:

    Myabe we can trade Frenchy for Langerhans AND Willie Harris….

  204. 204
    Alzheimers'08! Says:

    This just in:

    Mike Hampton threw three innings and his arm did not fall off. This is surely one of the signs of the End of the World

  205. 205
    Smitty Says:

    No Hampton can throw anywhere, but in a big league game.

  206. 206
    Mr. Swings@Everything Says:

    Whodathunkit? I’m going with all Pirates in the OF on my all star ballot.

  207. 207
    Coop Says:

    “one game from before you were born/aware of baseball”

    In other words, pre-1950. How about game 7 of the 1934 world series?

    The Cards shut out the Tigers, 11-0. Dizzy Dean pitched, and Ducky Medwick was taken out of the game by Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis for his own protection when Tiger fans started bombarding him with anything they could find in the sixth inning.

    Watching a team made up of Dizzy, Ducky, Pepper, and the rest of the Gashouse Gang would probably be almost as exciting as cheering for these 2008 Braves.

  208. 208
    Mr. Swings@Everything Says:

    @ 206

    Guess I’m the only one. Soriano, Fukudome, and Griffey as the leading vote getters in the OF??? I guess Florida voters have trouble voting for their All Stars as well with Uggla a distant 4th and Hanley Ramirez barely topping Miguel Tejada. I’m sure all that will change when they get their new, publicly funded stadium though.

  209. 209
    barrycuda Says:

    #206………i hope no one in Dade/Broward counties is holding their breath waithing for that new stadium. new tax laws in Florida has every local government in a bind. since apparently nobody there cares about baseball, all those great plans might go right out the window when schools and libraries are getting the axe.

  210. 210
    billy-jay Says:

    Ububba,

    the saxophone kept him out of Vietnam. He’s a chaplain now, working at Walter Reed.

  211. 211
    ububba Says:

    bamachum,
    Brooks Robinson was my 1st favorite ballplayer. It began when my dad sent home a reel-to-reel tape of ballplayers visiting Viet Nam in 1966-67. Along with Mel Allen, Brooks Robinson was on the tape. I still have it. And the 1970 WS is the first one I remember.

    billy-jay,
    My dad should’ve taken up the sax.

  212. 212
    Mike Says:

    Talkin’ about old time games, did some youtubing and found this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE9D0oAyCC4

  213. 213
    Stephen Says:

    From Latin to Dizzy Dean to the continuing story of Mike Hampton’s recovery: Braves Journal is primed for another month….

  214. 214
    bamachum Says:

    ububba,

    Growing up, before the days of the internet, I had limited baseball resources. We didn’t get a satellite at my house until I was about 10ish or so (’94-’95) so I watch Braves games through the antenna on TBS. Anyway, I had video called “History of Baseball” or something and it documented the history of the game through about the mid-80s. Well, I played 3B when I was young, and when I saw the clips of Brooks Robinson’s defensive play at 3B in the ’70 WS, I was amazed. Along, with Cal Ripken in the mid/late 90’s, I became a huge Orioles fan. I even bought Brooks Robinson’s autograph when I got to visit Cooperstown during a family vacation.

    To this day, even though I love the Braves, the best game I’ve ever seen is when the O’s beat the Braves 22-1 in ATL, I think it was 1999. I got tickets at the last minute and got to see Cal Jr. go 6-6 with 2 HRs.

    If I could see anyone play from before my time (born in ’85) it would definitely be Robinson, although I’d love to have seen Ruth & Gehrig, Mays, Mantle, Bob Gibson, actually I guess its quite a few but #1 would be Robinson.

  215. 215
    Stephen Says:

    A nice win for th MB Pelicans. Jeff Lyman pitched impressively; if there is one pitcher who looks a bit like Morton at this point in his minor league career its Lyman. He has had great stuff, but has had trouble getting it together. It would be a real shot in the arm if Lyman started to become a serious prospect instead of just being an arm.

    Also, Campbell is showing signs that he has figured out how to hit in MB. Again, this would be a very good development if it panned out…

  216. 216
    Stephen Says:

    Sorry, I meant to include the boxscore:

    http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&gid=2008_06_30_myrafa_frdafa_1&cid=521&t=g_box

  217. 217
    Another Alex R. Says:

    Seat Painter, Walter may not be twice as Denton T., but he’s definitely better.

  218. 218
    J Leeds (oi!) Says:

    I’m in Montgomery on business this week, so I went to the game last night. Hanson looked terrible; somehow he only gave up one run in three innings, but it really should have been much more.

    Really, the team as a whole did not look impressive. Matt Young is Gregor Blanco Lite…

    I would say some more, but I have to go to work now.

  219. 219
    Cliff Says:

    @218,

    Did you pick up any word on Hanson (as in, he isn’t hurt, is he?).

    Actually, Mississippi is a much better team with Schafer back. Also, Hanson has helped them. Their second half record (so far) is much better than the first half.

    Rome also is doing better in the second half. The young position players are getting better. Heyward early was good, now very good (probably needs to move up before the end of the year). Cody Johnson has been pretty good in June. He has dropped his strikeout rate about from about 40 to about 35 % and has slightly increased walks and tremoundously increased ISO. He may be a Thorman / Kailahue type (starts off bad at each level and then gets better only to be promoted and then get bad again).

    Meanwhile, Myrtle has been better in the second half and Richmond has dropped from its early position. I thinkRichmond has been stripped of too many useful parts (all of the damn injuries).

  220. 220
    CharlesP Says:

    I’m going to have to ponder this “one game” idea a bit. I like where ububba went with it (guys we don’t have good footage of)… and I’m torn between “do I want to see how good Babe Ruth/Shoeless Joe/Ty Cobb/Ted Williams/take your pick really were” games and “historical event” games (like 715, etc)… I’m also considering just wanting to go back and see some of the games with Murphy and/or Neikro in them that I recall only vaguely from my childhood… This is almost as fun as dreaming of what I’d do if I won the lottery.

  221. 221
    Hate King Says:

    This would be my game:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PIT/PIT196010130.shtml

  222. 222
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Breaking John Oates news.

  223. 223
    Stephen Says:

    The fact that Hanson did not pitch well needs to be compared with his no-hitter. I don’ t think that either necessarily is indicative of the way he might pitch if he makes it the majors. More to the point, he remains a prospect and probably not as close to being able to get out big league hitters as he looked last week…

  224. 224
    bamachum Says:

    I’m looking all over the place, but can’t seem to find the glossary, could someone please link it for me? TIA.

  225. 225
    barrycuda Says:

    hate king…………great game. i think i was in the 8th grade. they used to put a couple b&w tvs in the cafeteria and let anyone who wanted to watch leave their class. for some reason, they kicked us out early that day and i missed maz’ homer while i was walking/running home……………..the most amazing thing is that it was a 10-9 world series game and it was played in 2:36. does anyone not think that game would be at LEAST an hour longer now?

  226. 226
    barrycuda Says:

    too many great games over the years but my favorite “modern era” braves game has to be the extra-inning playoff game with the astros…….the one Walt Wiess won with his funky old glove.

  227. 227
    csg Says:

    are we getting both Kotsay and Prado back today? If we do, I guess Lilli and Brandon will get sent back to Richmond

  228. 228
    Another Alex R. Says:

    How bout this one?

  229. 229
    Parish Says:

    I’m guessing B. Jones to Richmond and Chipper to the DL.

  230. 230
    barrycuda Says:

    i think i missed that one, Alex…………..my first baseball memories are of the ’57 world series. thats why i’m a Braves fan and hate the Yankees to this day.(although i’m sure they would’ve given me another reason to hate them by now)

  231. 231
    csg Says:

    thats true, is Infante going to the DL?

  232. 232
    Another Alex R. Says:

    The most famous play in that game isn’t in the box score… it’s the Sandy Amoros Game.

  233. 233
    ububba Says:

    And for modern YankeeHate, you would’ve loved this game:

    http://tinyurl.com/5ger4w

    At the last out, it was so quiet in the stands that, from the upper deck, you could hear the victors celebrating on the field, every whoop and holler. Just a surreal scene.

  234. 234
    barrycuda Says:

    loved that game Ububba……thats the one where the Marlins were hoping to squeeze just a few innings out of Beckett………… the thought of a full Yankee Stadium being that quiet is strangely appealing. sorry i missed that part of it.

  235. 235
    csg Says:

    I heard this rumor the other day….Jeff Francouer sucks. Has anyone else heard this?

  236. 236
    Parish Says:

    Trying to decide if I should put any additional effort into the all-star voting.

    Places where votes over the last two days might make a difference:

    NL:
    Shortstop – Ramirez v. Tejada.
    Outfield – Griffey, Fukudome, or Braun for the final 2 spots.

    AL:
    First base – Youkilis v. Mourneau
    2nd base – Pedroia v. Kinsler
    Catcher – Mauer v. Varitek
    Final outfield spot – Suzuki, Abreu, J.D. Drew, Damon, or Vlad.

  237. 237
    ububba Says:

    barrycuda,
    After the last out, I called the only Marlins fan I know—he lives in Broward County—and I said, “John, congratulations. Listen…you hear that?”

    “Hear what?”

    “Exactly. It’s quiet as a forest in here. I’m out—enjoy it.”

    Then, very strangely, I went to another celebration of the dead, a posthumous Joe Strummer (ex-Clash singer) record-release party. But that’s another story…

  238. 238
    Stephen Says:

    One of the best games that I never saw was a college game that I almost saw: Yale-St. Johns in May 1981.

    I had a friend visiting and a job interview and told him to go watch Yale play because we had this ‘pretty good pitcher named Ron Darling’. I went to the interview and learned that Darling had a no-hitter for 11 innings and lost. St. Johns won on a hit and a double steal. St. Johns was led by Frank Viola–who had a number of hitless innings.

    Even though I got the job, I have regretted that interview now for 27 years…

  239. 239
    Jorgbacca Says:

    Is something wrong with Hudson that I haven’t heard about? They list his next turn as “to be announced” on the official site.

    http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp?c_id=atl

  240. 240
    Parish Says:

    Maybe, they’re not sure if they are skipping Campillo with the off day.

  241. 241
    Cliff Says:

    With Hudson’s stats on 5 days rest like they are (Cy Young level, compared to #2 on 4 day s rest), the Braves really need to take advantage of the extra day.

    Until somebody sees Campillo a second time and hits him hard, you keep sending him out there. on schedule (unless he is having blister problems again).

  242. 242
    Jorgbacca Says:

    They’ve currently have Campillo set to pitch tomorrow so I don’t know if that’s it.

  243. 243
    mraver Says:

    Oh, off-days!

    I’ve got to say, I think “Veni Vidi Frenchi” is by far the best thing to come out of this thread, and (with translation) needs to be the new tag line for the site (I guess I missed the Weasels thing).

    And I see no reason to skip anyone in this rotation unless it’s one of the young guys (especially Jurrjens, whose pitch count we really do need to worry about keeping to something reasonable). Otherwise, just give everyone an extra day. Sounds fine to me! :-D

  244. 244
    bamachum Says:

    I realize Willy Aybar was traded because of off-the-field issues, but he is playing fairly well for Tampa Bay at 1B/2B and even at 3B before Longoria was called up. He would be an upgrade over Gotay.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/aybarwi01.shtml

    Also, Roger McDowell has received some criticism the past couple years, but our pitching has been great this year, esp. considering the injuries to not only key starters but Soriano, and Moylan at the back-end of the bullpen. In fact, I think Boyer and Acosta, etc. struggles’ have been more the result of Bobby’s managing of them, rather than their true abilities. Its just funny to me how we went from the oldest starting rotation at the beginning of the year (Smoltz/Glavine/Hampton, to one of, if not the youngest with Morton and Reyes. I would like to think that some of this is due to McDowell and not their development alone.

  245. 245
    Jeff M. Says:

    Yes bamachum, you are right (for now–I reserve the right to get off the McDowell bandwagon as soon as the pitchers struggle, so fickle am I). But whether or not Acosta has been mismanaged or not, it’s time to do something about him. He has struggled so much for a while now. I’m not sure if he’s suffering from dead arm syndrome (courtesy of Cox’s overuse of him) or if he has a mechanical flaw. Either way, some time off would help (either going on the DL or going to Richmond). And frankly, given how little Buddy pitches or how little Ring pitches, I’m not sure another arm is really necessary. It would be better to bring up another bat (which I realize are not exactly plentiful in Richmond). Oh well.

  246. 246
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Game thread is up. It’s a little early, but this thread was getting a little full.

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