Braves Journal, The House That Mac Built

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16 Oct

Chris Reitsma vs. Joe Slusarski

Chris Reitsma Statistics and History – Baseball-Reference.com

Seasons with Braves: 2004-2006
Notable Stats: 4.72 ERA, 25 saves/20 blown saves
Notable Achievements: Knows that he sucks.

Versus

Joe Slusarski Statistics and History – Baseball-Reference.com

Seasons with Braves: 2001
Notable Stats: 9.00 ERA
Notable Achievements: Only pitched in four games and really doesn’t belong on the list, sorry.

175 Responses to “Chris Reitsma vs. Joe Slusarski”

  1. 1
    Tom Says:

    I havbe never heard of Joe Slusarski. But even if I had, and no matter what he did, I would have voted for Chris Reitsma. The only good thing about Reitsma was that Bobby didn’t have to bring in Kolbb after him because there was nothing left to be saved blown.

  2. 2
    Johnny Says:

    didn’t want to get JC’ed. this from last thread.

    The hell of it is that there seems to be so few options at this point to acquire a right handed bat.
    Option 1
    Pay a lot of money for Matt Holliday or Jason Bay.
    Option 2
    Trade Javier Vazquez or Jair Jurrjens for a veteran hitter. I say these two, not because I advocate it but to get something you have to give something. I am just not convinced that Kenshin Kawakami will get you anything better than Matt Diaz.
    Option 3
    Take a chance on someone like Milton Bradley (no way) or Adrian Beltre to bounce back.
    Option 4
    Obtain a lesser player or an old guy and hope that his addition will be better than Matt Diaz. Mark DeRosa, Mike Cameron Jermain Dye?

  3. 3
    td Says:

    I don’t know about Reitsma being one of the worst. He had a horrible, horrible year, but most of this was due to injury and overuse. 2004 and 2005 for Reitsma were about league average, but Cox’s bullpen management didn’t help him in any way.

  4. 4
    barrycuda Says:

    yeah, Bobby should have left him sitting in the bullpen so he would never blow a save. Cox has this annoying habit of expecting relief pitchers to actually get out there and earn their paychecks.

  5. 5
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    Bish thinks closers suck.

    http://furmanbisher.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/thell-with-closers/#comment-129

  6. 6
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Oh, God, I agree with Furman Bisher. Kill me now.

  7. 7
    td Says:

    @4 – I know you were being sarcastic, but yeah, Cox should have let Reitsma sit. He pitched 84 games in 04 and 76 in 05. I think many of the games he pitched in 06 were when he had no feeling in a few of his fingers. IMO he should have sat more in 04 and 05 and been DL’d or released much earlier in 06.

  8. 8
    stupup74 Says:

    I think the save is an overrated stat, but the closer is not an overrated position. To be successful you HAVE to have a ‘hammer’ in the bullpen. To be really successful you have to have more than one, along with the guys WHO THROW STRIKES. (The braves only had 4 guys in the pen who could throw the ball over the plate consistenly, thus they ran up HUGE appearance numbers.)

    What I mean by a ‘hammer’ is a guy who can throw strikes BY hitters. You have to have a guy who can miss bats IN THE STRIKE ZONE.

    The Braves have to get a bopper in the middle of the order. They also need to look at the top spot in the order. I thought the braves played their best ball with the Diaz/Church platoon at the top of the order. That would allow McLouth to hit in a secondary RBI spot (6 or 7).

    The trade that is screaming to be made is Freeman and/or Schaffer, and/or JJ for Bell and Gonzalez in SD. (Then they HAVE to sign Gonzalez long term.)

  9. 9
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    Don’t see the Padres trading Gonzalez before the ASB, and then only if they are out of it.

  10. 10
    desert Says:

    “Do you ever see an NFL coach go to his “bullpen” to “save” a football game? Of course not.”

    Wow. I’m speechless.

  11. 11
    stupup74 Says:

    BC ran Retisma in the ground. He had good stuff when he wasn’t pitching 5 days in arow, but, again Retisma could not throw the fastball in the strike zone enough to make his changeup work like it should.

    Bottom Line: Retisma sucked.

  12. 12
    Stu Says:

    The trade that is screaming to be made is Freeman and/or Schaffer, and/or JJ for Bell and Gonzalez in SD. (Then they HAVE to sign Gonzalez long term.)

    I don’t think that would be enough. And Gonzalez is left-handed, so, while I like the idea, I seriously doubt the move is on the Braves’ radar.

  13. 13
    stupup74 Says:

    9

    The Padres are BROKE, they HAVE to move him for something.

    I fully admit the SD trade is a long shot, but it would help both sides.

  14. 14
    Randy Says:

    Put me in the group who thought Reitsma didn’t suck. That said, I remember Slusarski when he was with the A’s, but had completely forgot he had a cup of coffee with the Braves. I’ll vote Reitsma this round, but there’s a lot crappier guys in this bracket than him.

  15. 15
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    Gonzalez is CHEAP and SIGNED through 2011, so they don’t HAVE to do ANYTHING with him. I don’t SEE how getting two guys who HAVEN’T done anything at the ML level HELPS SD at all.

  16. 16
    cliff Says:

    grst from the previous thread:

    How does the manager affect the pythag? Think about it.

    The manager makes all in game replacement decisions. If you use your closer with a 6 run lead and a 4 run lead and then, on the 3rd day, he can’t hold a 1 run lead, then you get a loss. But, in net runs, it is only “2″ (the one to tie it and the one to lose it). With each win over 81 equal to approximately a 10 run differential, you just farted away a win for only 2. You only have to do that a few more times than the “average manager” to go in the wrong direction in primary pythag.

    Manager also affects third order. When the bases are loaded, that is a situation that third order would assume brings in lots of runs (the underlying events of walks and hits that created the “bases loaded”). But if you send up a below average hitter (Norton) you get a below average number of actual runs scoring. The lesser runs scoring means fewer wins.

    As to random chance and pythag’s, that is “vastly different” than a coin flip. it is more like “clutch hitting.” that is, there clearly CAN be skill differences (which there are not for the flipping coin, but possibly for a “crooked flipper”) at work). In the baseball events, there is a potential problem in determining that you may not actually have an effect. However, from my observation, I am convinced that Cox is costing this team games. Some of those show up inside the regular win / loss (the bunting stuff which probably takes 3 or 4 wins besides the lost pythag wins BECAUSE the out taken in bunting is a negative to actual runs scored over a season)

    Basically, the argument for Cox is he creates a positive atmosphere that produces enough extra hits, walks, XBH, “caught balls”, strikeouts, non gopher balls, etc. to equal what he manages away. Javier Vazquez may be an example of that working just like that. I have, nonetheless, reached the conclusion that this team will give up AT LEAST 5 games by having Cox over a miscellaneous average manager.

  17. 17
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    I have, nonetheless, reached the conclusion that this team will give up AT LEAST 5 games by having Cox over a miscellaneous average manager.

    I say this all the time and I’ll say it again. If there were a manager worth 5 wins, teams would pay him $20 million dollars. You’re vastly overstating a manager’s impact.

  18. 18
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    The one accomplishment for Retisma is: “responsible for the creation of the phrase ‘Retisma room’”. That’s sort of positive, right? Funny nonetheless.

  19. 19
    CourtneyC Says:

    Wow. That 2005 season sure was a fluke. We had a horrible bullpen that farnsworth singlehandly into average. Our starters were average at best. But on the plus side, the League hadn’t figured out to not throw Jeffy strikes. That was probally it.

  20. 20
    Johnny Says:

    Cliff, the point is that the pythag is just a little bit better than a wild ass guess. So even if you could PROVE that Bobby caused the team to under perform its pythag, who gives a shit.

    stupup there are some of us that remember when relief pitchers were called firemen. They were brought in VERY high leverage situations with the game on the line. Bases loaded no out type of situations. Generally firemen were the best pitchers in the bullpen. Guys not good enough to be starters but good enough to bring in to truly SAVE a game from being lost.

  21. 21
    Johnny Says:

    re read your post stupup. we agree. sorry for the lecture.

  22. 22
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    the point is that the pythag is just a little bit better than a wild ass guess

    I’m not entirely sure I understand what you’re trying to say, but if I’m understanding it correctly, it’s incorrect. Pythagorean winning percentage is a better indicator of how good a team is than their actual winning percentage. One of many pieces of evidence: 1st half Pythagorean winning percentage correlates better with 2nd half winning percentage than 1st half winning percentage does.

  23. 23
    Stu Says:

    P. W. Hjort,
    I really enjoyed your Top 40 Prospects rundown you gave, even if I do think you’re selling Mikie Minor a little short. (In ranking, at least. The evaluation was pretty spot-on, but I would place someone with that evaluation comfortably in the Top 10.)

    Anyway, I’m telling you here, as opposed to on your site, to try to get you some extra traffic. Great job.

  24. 24
    RobBroad4th Says:

    I’m all about selling high on Vazquez. He’s been stellar this year but, as someone already said, you have to give something good to get something good. I don’t think we’ll be able to afford him after this year anyway.

  25. 25
    drewdat Says:

    I always thought Reitsma was a pretty good reliever. Obviously he fell off a cliff and earns the blame for it, but up until then he was productive. Of course, the collapse happened at the end, and it’s what people remember. Still, much better than someone like Kolb, who was expensive and always sucked for us.

  26. 26
    Stu Says:

    Let’s just trade Lowe for Pujols.

  27. 27
    joelk Says:

    P.W. Hjort,

    Where is your top 40 prospects rundown, it sounds like something I would like to read?

  28. 28
    Stu Says:

    Click on his name.

  29. 29
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Stu, you clearly know nothing about how trades work. Everyone knows that you can’t trade one bad player for one good one. You have to trade at least three or four bad players for that good player. Just ask the guys on MLBTraderumors.

  30. 30
    Mac Thomason Says:

    If you missed it, my note for Reitsma’s “notable accomplishments” refers to this.

  31. 31
    joelk Says:

    Thanks Stu!

  32. 32
    Dusty Says:

    Vladamir Nunez was let go as well per Baseball America, which means Nunez, Carlyle, Campillo and Gorecki are off the 40-man and Schafer’s back on after being activated from the 60-day DL which gives us 37 I think.

  33. 33
    Stu Says:

    I believe Nunez accepted his AAA assignment, though, so he’s still in the organization, just off the 40-man.

  34. 34
    cliff Says:

    Who do we have to add to 40 man to “protect” and by what date? That is what is driving the releases.

  35. 35
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    34,
    I believe the Rule 5 draft is during the Winter Meetings (or is it during the GM Meetings?).

    Stu,
    Thanks. I really wanted to rank Minor higher, but I ended up settling on 13.

  36. 36
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    Furman Bisher is basically saying that Cox F***** up another season by being over reliant upon the bullpen and not staying with his starters enough. Of course, Cox is not alone in his damnation as the ninth inning closer has become SOP in ML baseball.

    That said, closers are a necessity but allowing the starting pitcher to finish a game every once in a while is like having your hamburger without the cheese. It still tastes great but doesn’t allow for the annoying gaseous after effects.

  37. 37
    Johnny Says:

    @22 My bad. I did some reading. The pythag is more than a wild ass guess but its still just an estimate.

    Just a few wins with 23 to nothing scores can make that estimate of a teams won/loss look a lot better than what the team is capable of actually doing.

  38. 38
    ryan c Says:

    WARNING….EXTREME ROSTERBATION!!!
    Offseason:
    Once the braves find a sucker to take lowe, they will have about 70 million dollars on the payroll (i’m assuming we will have to eat a few million on lowe’s contract, so hudson’s 12 mil option will end up evening out after we sign him for 3/30).

    that gives roughly 22 million left for free agents. the braves could sign these 3 guys for 20 mil total:
    adam laroche 2/16
    mike gonzalez 2/12
    xsvier nady 1/5

    that creates a little flexibility in regards to church and johnson. i am assuming that neither of these guys will be braves next year and will be traded, so that adds an extra 6 million.

    point being: if lowe goes, so does our financial problems. i would love this lineup against lefties:
    mclouth
    prado
    chipper
    nady
    escobar
    mccann
    laroche
    diaz

    That is no big bopper lineup, but it has 2 guys that can hit 25-30 hr, 3 guys that can hit 20-25 hr, and 3 guys that can hit 13-20 hr (assuming prado and escobar’s power numbers arent flukes, which they didnt seem to be).

  39. 39
    Adam R Says:

    Beat me to it. I was about to suggest that we might be able to get decent value/$ for Xavier Nady, and we’ve been rumored to be interested in him in the past.

  40. 40
    RobBroad4th Says:

    @38,

    That line-up is downright solid, though I’d probably swap McCann and Escobar (though anyone in that line-up is too good to hit 7th or 8th).

  41. 41
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    Nady had Tommy John in July and I’m not sure he’ll be ready for the start of the season. Question: what’s the recovery time for position players who have Tommy John? What was KJ’s?

  42. 42
    Adam R Says:

    Nady says he’s expecting to be back by ST.

  43. 43
    Mac Thomason Says:

    KJ was back for spring training after midseason surgery.

  44. 44
    ryan c Says:

    if we were to re-sign gonzo and laroche, nady would have 3 ex-teammates on the braves squad. that might be enough to entice him.

  45. 45
    Stu Says:

    I’d pass on Nady. Much rather trade for Pujols.

  46. 46
    Johnny Says:

    jojo reyes straight up for Pujols. The Cards would be fools not to take that one. Look how good the Wainwright deal worked out for them.

  47. 47
    Stu Says:

    Like I said, we should trade them Lowe. We need the salary relief, anyway, and he has won some big postseason games. The Cardinals need that and we need a right-handed, slugging first baseman. Perfect match, IMO.

  48. 48
    RobBroad4th Says:

    You need to add Kelly Johnson and Manny Acosta before they’ll even answer the phone.

  49. 49
    Johnny Says:

    JoJo Reyes and Lowe for Pujols.

  50. 50
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I think we should throw in Clint Sammons and they should add Colby Rasmus, just to make it even.

  51. 51
    Stu Says:

    Don’t be ridiculous, Mac.

  52. 52
    td Says:

    yeah Mac – Clint Sammons is surely worth more than that.

  53. 53
    ububba Says:

    Man, can you believe Pedro today?

  54. 54
    Ron E. Says:

    Hey how about trading the Cardinals Bobby and Freeman for Pujols? Then they wouldn’t have to re-sign Larussa but would still have a HOF manager.

  55. 55
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Man, the Phillies are good enough without a freaking time machine.

  56. 56
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    Yep, it’s been one hell of a ballgame so far in Chavez Ravine.

  57. 57
    Stu Says:

    Not enough stolen base attempts or sacrifice bunts from either team, IMO.

  58. 58
    Mac Thomason Says:

    If the Dodgers take the lead here, Grady Little will probably break into the broadcast booth and say that he’s vindicated.

  59. 59
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    Phillies should have been out of the inning but two defensive gaffs cost them a run.

  60. 60
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I never thought Utley, of all people, would get the Yips.

  61. 61
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    And Charlie Manuel should have left Pedro in the game.

  62. 62
    ryan c Says:

    http://www.talkingchop.com/2009/10/16/1088280/braves-brian-mccann-will-undergo

  63. 63
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    Series all tied up 1-1.

  64. 64
    RobBroad4th Says:

    @62,

    Fingers crossed indeed.

  65. 65
    c.shorter Says:

    I know he was only in high school, but was Rasmus considered an uber talent when the Braves took Devine?

  66. 66
    sdp Says:

    Disappointed in McCann’s decision to undergo LASIK again. As an analogy, a professor once told me, artificial sweeteners “appear” safe but we haven’t seen the effects of their being integrated into the diets of people over an entire generation. Same situation with LASIK–the question marks over the long-term effects of the procedure don’t seem worth it.

  67. 67
    blake Says:

    @ 65,

    yes, he was.

  68. 68
    Rob Cope Says:

    @66

    Sometimes you have to take risks to be as successful at your job as possible. I know vision is incredibly important, but McCann’s also talking about potentially losing millions of dollars if his eyes aren’t getting the job done. Of course, I took the gamble and got LASIK surgery without so much reward on the line.

  69. 69
    Mac Thomason Says:

    He did fine with the glasses.

  70. 70
    c. shorter Says:

    67 — ugh. Makes taking a college closer that much more silly (not even taking into account MLB results).

  71. 71
    Mac Thomason Says:

    He’s not a pitcher!

  72. 72
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    I forgot where this article was published or who wrote it, but there is an article in which the author quantitatively concludes that selecting college closers is one of the most efficient ways to acquire talent in the draft. His reasoning was basically a) they have a fairly high success rate, b) they’re cheap to sign because, unlike high school players, they don’t have a lot of other options, c) when they get to the show they don’t usually cost that much even in their arb years, and d) they tend to remain healthier than other pitchers because they’re not subject to idiot high school and college pitching coaches making them throw 184 pitches the day after throwing 2 innings in relief.

    Not that taking Devine over Rasmus was the correct decision. Just a piece of information.

    Here’s another draft “What-if”. In the 2005 draft (the Devine draft) the Braves had a supplemental round pick. They took Beau Jones (he went to Texas in the Teixeira deal). Guess who got picked 1 pick later. Clay Buchholz.

  73. 73
    braves14 Says:

    At least it appears that our 2nd and 3rd round picks from that draft were good. (Escobar and Schafer)

    Just sucks that our 1st round pick turned into a half season of Mark Kotsay (who got traded for a minor leaguer we never hear about.)

  74. 74
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    73,

    I more than feel ya. Actually, Luis Sumoza was a legit prospect coming into this season and the organization hyped him in Rome as the best prospect on the team. Turned out, the team had a bunch of really interesting pitching prospects (R. Delgado, Spruill, Hoover, etc..) and Adam Milligan while Sumoza turned into Jeff Francoeur v. 2.0 right before my eyes.

    I think the lesson here is that the Mark Kotsay trade was stupid. If the Braves had only signed Mike Cameron during that off-season…. Not only would they still have Devine (which, despite his track record, is a positive), but they would’ve had a good shot at competing this season. Additionally, they wouldn’t have shipped 1/4 of the farm off for a bad defensive CF’er whose bat won’t play at a corner, and could have shipped that same haul off for a real corner OF.

  75. 75
    hankonly Says:

    If Vandy beats the UGAs today it’s going to get really interesting around here.

    And, if Tech beats the Hokies (notice how much better the Falcons are now that they are Hokie-free?), DawgNation will be twitching on the floor.

    Surely the Dawgs won’t go 3-4 …

  76. 76
    hankonly Says:

    Do the Braves have a lefty starter in the pipeline?

  77. 77
    braves14 Says:

    Dimaster Delgado is probably the top lefty, he pitched at Rome this year. Mike Minor probably isn’t too far away.

  78. 78
    braves14 Says:

    No SEC picks this week Mac?

    I think the Braves should have tried Reitsma as a starter as his arsenal was not really suitable to be a late inning reliever. Also, his arm fell off after the numerous relief appearances and I don’t think he plays baseball anymore.

  79. 79
    c. shorter Says:

    72 — Interesting. I’m curious to see that article. Makes sense to not spend money on closers… but seems like your draft cost is too high.

  80. 80
    Weldon Says:

    braves14 – His hearts says Bama but his mind says USC.

  81. 81
    Smitty Says:

    Fear the Gamecocks

  82. 82
    Johnny Says:

    Y’all if the Gamecocks win today do all the things you would do if you knew the apocalypse was upon us.

    @74 So? Everyone here screamed when Andy Marte was traded. Look how good that one turned out. The lesson is that you win some and you lose some. The good teams win more of them than they lose.

  83. 83
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I forgot. Home teams in CAPS. Just the ones that haven’t started yet:

    ALABAMA 31, USC 9
    FLORIDA 47, Arkansas 28
    OLE MISS 31, UAB 10
    AUBURN 40, Kentucky 12
    Idle 10, TENNESSEE 0

  84. 84
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    Additionally, they wouldn’t have shipped 1/4 of the farm off for a bad defensive CF’er whose bat won’t play at a corner, and could have shipped that same haul off for a real corner OF.

    JC, among others including myself, does not agree.

    http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/10/nate-mclouth-is-a-4th-outfielder/

    Neither does THT

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/is-mclouth-a-fourth-outfielder/

  85. 85
    ububba Says:

    I don’t like South Carolina in this game at all, but that +17 looks pretty good.

    No matter how things go for the Dawgs, we still have AJ Green, who is usually the best player on the field.

  86. 86
    Mac Thomason Says:

    If y’all want to see a Heisman campaign implode, turn on ABC.

  87. 87
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    Spike, they were discussing Mark Kotsay, not Nate McLouth.

  88. 88
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    Spike, they were discussing Mark Kotsay, not Nate McLouth.

    I read it as the failure of the Devine trade necessitated the McLouth move. I apologize if I got it wrong.

  89. 89
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    88,

    You’re correct. I was speaking about McLouth. All those articles say is McLouth isn’t a 4th OF. I agree, he’s a starting CF’er. His bat’s well above average there. Enough so to overcome his defensive limitations.

    I stand by my statement, though. He’s a bad defensive CF’er whose bat won’t play at a corner.

  90. 90
    c. shorter Says:

    89 McLouth’s bat plays at a corner if ACHE’s your LF. heh heh.

  91. 91
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    I am missing the “bat won’t play at a corner” part. A poster at BBTF ranked every OF with 640+ PAs (To get 120 OFs, or 4 per team) from 2007-09 by OPS+

    McLouth was 32nd by OPS+

    445+ PAs (to get 5 per team)
    McLouth was 36th.

    There is just no way McLouth isn’t a starting corner OF for most teams, offensively or defensively.

    As far as the “bad CF” part goes, defensive metrics are still pretty untrustworthy for me, but I don’t know that I would classify him as bad, and the data from 2009 supports this.

  92. 92
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    91,

    League average OPS for NL corner OF’s was .781 in 2009. McLouth’s was .773 with the Braves. I’m also suspicious that he’s not as good as his numbers have been. Keith Law seems to think so. After all, he’s 5’11″ 185 LB, he’s a career .260 hitter, and most people who know how to evaluate such things (I certainly don’t) aren’t in love with his swing. I don’t know, maybe saying his bat won’t play at a corner is a bit of an overstatement. He won’t ever be that power-hitting threat the Braves seek, though.

    My point is, if the Braves sign Cameron instead of trading a useful reliever for Mark Kotsay, they’ve not only got a better CF’er, but they can ship that same haul they sent to Pittsburgh for McLouth to another team for a legitimate power-hitting threat. I think they’re a much better team in 2008 and 2009 if they do that.

  93. 93
    ububba Says:

    Soo-oo-ey! Pig! Pig! Pig!

  94. 94
    ububba Says:

    So let me get this straight: A random SEC player makes a play then rolls the ball, bobs his head, points to the crowd or even sticks out his chest and… it’s 15 yards.

    It’s an idiotic rule IMO, but that’s what we’re to understand week to week in the league. Fine.

    But Tim Tebow gets a first down, spikes the ball, jumps up and down like a overcaffeinated orangutan, points first down and exhorts the crowd to cheer and… nothing?

    Just an observation. I mean, I’d hate to draw too many conclusions from that, but at the very least there’s a genuine double-standard happening here.

    Unless you’re directly taunting the other team, I don’t think any of it should be penalized. But this is bordering on ridiculous.

  95. 95
    Mac Thomason Says:

    It’s simple logic — if Tebow does it, it can’t possibly be wrong!

  96. 96
    Rob Cope Says:

    ububba,

    I totally agree man. There is definitely a double-standard that Tim Tebow is getting. AJ Green would get life in prison if he did what Tim Tebow does.

    But that just shows why those calls in the LSU-Georgia were so ridiculous. What Tebow is doing isn’t excessive whatsoever, and so if it’s ok for him to do it, Green and Scott had no business getting penalized for what they did.

    I’m with you man.

  97. 97
    Rob Cope Says:

    Mac, if Tebow wore the crimson and white, you’d be in love with him. Don’t play that crap; you’re simply just jealous.

  98. 98
    Mac Thomason Says:

    My favorite was the phone calls. When Tebow pretended to call the LSU students, it wasn’t a penalty. When Knowshon Moreno did, it wasn’t a penalty. When John Parker Wilson did it, it was a penalty.

  99. 99
    td Says:

    The head of SEC officials admitted that the LSU/Ga calls were wrong. The officials involved were reprimanded. Tebow did get a 15 yard penalty for taunting last year.

  100. 100
    ububba Says:

    It wasn’t an SEC game when he got flagged. It was the BCS title game. But he does it all the time in SEC games & nothing gets called.

  101. 101
    Rob Cope Says:

    I don’t see any problem with what Tebow is doing. If another retard ref wants to nail JPW, that’s his thing, but don’t blame Tebow for bring positive energy (BCS title game notwithstanding) to energetic football games.

  102. 102
    ububba Says:

    Just call it for everyone. It’s either a penalty or it’s not.

    It cost us a game & I’m still sore about it.

  103. 103
    Rob Cope Says:

    I understand ububba. I wouldn’t get over it until the end of the season.

  104. 104
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    Here’s the skinny on Nate McLouth.

    He’s a hard nosed steady gap-to-gap hitter with good power who runs well and steal the occasional base. McLouth is versatile, and athletic enough to play all three outfield spots while fitting in best for the Braves out in CF.

    But lacks the plate discipline to draw enough walks, struggles with runners in scoring position and lacks the overall consistency to be an effective lead off type hitter.

    His salary is affordable enough to justify keeping him around for the near future and McLouth has yet to peak a player. Overall, McLouth is a defensive asset in CF but is batting out of position which hurts his offensive game.

    Atlanta probably gave up too much in trade but that’s the price for good talent these days.

  105. 105
    ububba Says:

    Joke’s-On-Me Dept.
    Just when this Ark/Fla blunderfest was getting interesting—another SI curse?—I gotta head up to The Bronx. (DVR, what an idea.)

    Weather: Cold & drizzly with more rain expected. Could be a long, miserable evening.

    Let’s see if the Halos can hang onto the ball tonight.

  106. 106
    RobBroad4th Says:

    Stay dry, ububba. I can vouch for the fact it’s pretty miserable here right now.

  107. 107
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    Coach –

    McLouth is a defensive asset in CF but is batting out of position which hurts his offensive game.

    What do you mean by “batting out of position which hurts his offensive game”? How?

    PW – League average OPS for NL corner OF’s was .781 in 2009. McLouth’s was .773 with the Braves. I’m also suspicious that he’s not as good as his numbers have been.

    You should really use OPS+ to do your comparisons, but .003 of raw difference is nothing. In a corner OF role, he’s about average offensively, while a defensive asset. That makes a starter for most teams. Why are you suspicious, and why does it matter what Keith Law thinks? Besides, it was Sheehan who said he was a 4th OF, when BPro’s WAR and EqA/EqR clearly demonstrate he’s better than that.

  108. 108
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    McLouth isn’t a lead off hitter.

  109. 109
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    McLouth isn’t a lead off hitter.

    So? His OBP was 15 points higher batting first rather than third. Not seeing your rationale for the “hurts his offensive games” statement.

  110. 110
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    107,
    I’m suspicious because scouts generally don’t think he’s capable of sustaining his level of power production and because he’s 27 years old and has been trending downward for 2 years. What Keith Law says matters because he knows what he’s talking about. Not that he’s right about everything, but he’s a former scout and has worked in a front office. And if I were really intent on making the point, I would’ve used wOBA or EqA.

    You’re the one who brought up Sheehan’s suggestion, not me. I just said his bat won’t play at a corner. Then, seeing as that was probaby an unfair assessment, I retracted it. I never said anything about him being a 4th OF’er and don’t know why you keep bringing that argument back up.

    But we’ll see. I hope Law is wrong and McLouth returns to his 2008 power numbers.

  111. 111
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    Spike, McLouth never hit third for the Braves in 2009. He was used exclusively as a lead off hitter and admitted that he didn’t do a very good job of it. So stop making it all up as you go along, ok?

  112. 112
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Actually, he hit third when he first arrived, then was moved to leadoff within a week.

  113. 113
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Nate McLouth 2009 Batting Splits – Baseball-Reference.com

    I don’t see a big difference, but what there is argues for leadoff.

  114. 114
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    McLouth hit in the third hole for all of two games, and then Cox moved him into the lead off hole where Nate led off for eighty games. But no, he’s never been a productive lead off guy. McLouth simply doesn’t draw enough walks, hit for a high enough average, bunt, steal enough bases or maintain a decent SPE(scoring position efficiency).

    Frank Wren called him a lead off hitter which was about as accurate as our GM calling Derek Lowe an Ace. both descriptions are inaccurate and poorly informed.

    Thar said, I have ZERO confidence in Bobby Cox and very little in Frank Wren.

  115. 115
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    Coach, I am not saying he’s a good or bad “leadoff guy” – I sort of don’t believe that batting order matters much , actually – but your contention was that hitting leadoff hurt his production. I don’t see how that is provable.

    Never heard of SPE – saw this article about it http://www.3-dbaseball.net/2009/04/whos-best-leadoff-hitter-in-baseball.html, and it looks like something the guy made up out of thin air. Not saying it has no value, but I am not sure what it exactly is measuring, and how you can test it to see if it is an indicator of anything.

    Sorry, PW – hadn’t heard the Law statement and assumed you meant Sheehan. I was not trying to put words in your mouth.

    scouts generally don’t think he’s capable of sustaining his level of power production

    Hadn’t heard this either – where did you see it?

  116. 116
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    Yea baby, go Angels!

  117. 117
    braves14 Says:

    Both Garcia and McElroy look like they have no control of their limbs. McElroy’s 3 turnovers are the only reason it’s a game at the half.

  118. 118
    JC Says:

    Arguing about where McLouth should hit in the order is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Pacific Princess.

  119. 119
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    Hadn’t heard this either – where did you see it?

    A Baseball America chat awhile back. And I sort of misspoke. It’s not that they think he’s incapable of sustaining his current level of power production, it’s just that we perceive him to hit for a lot more power than he actually does. In the first 2 months of the 2008 season, McLouth hit .312/.399/.605 with 13 HR (6.05% of his AB’s). Statheads viewed this as unsustainable due to the high BABIP. Scouts viewed this not only as unsustainable, but as a complete fluke. He hit 13 more HR in the next 4 months of the season, hit 20 in 2009, and in the 10 months since June 1, 2008, has hit .256/.343/.436/.779 (33 HR, 3.71% of his AB’s). And this is more or less the real Nate McLouth. People consider him a legitimate 30/30 threat. If he got 800 AB’s in a season, he might be. The reality is, what we’ve seen the past 10 months is what we’re going to get.

  120. 120
    braves14 Says:

    Mark Ingram = Darren McFadden.

  121. 121
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    The Hardest Logic Puzzle Ever. This made my head hurt.

  122. 122
    Mac Thomason Says:

    He reminds me more of Knowshon Moreno.

  123. 123
    Rob Cope Says:

    Look at that excessive celebration by that Alabama player. He makes a tackle on a kick-off and hoots and hollers and pumps his chest. Unacceptable…

  124. 124
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Mac’s Top Ten

    1. Alabama
    2. Florida
    3. Texas
    4. Boise
    5. Iowa
    6. Cincinnati
    7. USC
    8. TCU
    9. Miami
    10. LSU

  125. 125
    hankonly Says:

    War (loser) Eagle!

  126. 126
    hankonly Says:

    Are we ever going to rise up and make SEC officials pay for their arrogance and incompetence?

    I rue the passing of the guillotine. Rogers Redding would be first in line.

  127. 127
    braves14 Says:

    I agree. They’re horrible.

  128. 128
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    The Gators are the number one team based on their last minute field goal winning kick. Whereas Alabama simply put the Gamecocks away by scoring a touchdown in the last minutes of the fourth quarter.

    My logic is irrefutable in this matter….and donkeys will come flying out my butt if anyone dares argue the subject :)

  129. 129
    ububba Says:

    It never fails. If I go 2 a Yankee post-season game, something crazy always happens.

  130. 130
    td Says:

    SEC rankings
    1. Alabama
    2. Florida
    3. LSU
    4. South Carolina
    5. Arkansas
    6. Ole Miss
    7. Georgia
    8. Tennessee
    9. Auburn
    10. Kentucky
    11. Miss St
    12. Vandy

    Teams 7-10 are completely interchangeable. Kentucky beat Auburn, Auburn beat Tennessee, Georgia beat Tennessee, …

  131. 131
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    My last comment on Nate McLouth in the hope’s of opening a few eyes.

    McLouth’s rankings when it comes to the merits of today’s table setters.

    1. stolen bases: 19, ranked 47th.

    2. OBP: .352, ranked 80th.

    3. Batting average: .257, didn’t crack the top 100.

    4. Runs scored: 86, ranked 53rd.

    5. Total bases: again, didn’t make any list worth mentioning.

    6. Walks: 68, ranked 55th.

    7. Home runs: 20 and ranked 78th with a bunch of other average players.

    8. Hits: sorry, whiffed on this important category, try again next year.

    9. RBI: 70 and barely in the door at 95th.

    10. OPS: .788 and scraping by at 90th.

    And if you still think McLouth should be batting first for our Braves, please reconsider the insane logic of my mental process.

    Angels/Yankees……..will somebody please win this damn game, it’s Sunday morning already!

  132. 132
    c. shorter Says:

    Angels are going to lose this series because they just can’t play defense right now.

  133. 133
    Mac Thomason Says:

    That game should have been stopped several innings before.

  134. 134
    ububba Says:

    I’ve seen worse. It was raining much harder during Game 5 of the ’99 NLCS at Shea. Wasn’t as cold, though.

  135. 135
    kc Says:

    Coach, Nate is a good player to have. I don’t think Nate hitting first or third or whatever is critical at all. After all, look at Grissom’s stat in the year we won the world series. The key for this offseason is to get that big bat in the middle of the lineup.

  136. 136
    ububba Says:

    td,
    They may be “interchangeable,” but don’t forget: UGA already beat your #4 & #5 teams.

    They also beat your #3 team, but that’s another story…

  137. 137
    billy-jay Says:

    @121:

    P.W., I love/hate you.

    Thanks.

  138. 138
    Smitty Says:

    td @130. Tennessee beat Georgia.

    Mac @ 95 is dead on. If Tebow pulled out a 9mm and stared shooting people in the stands, the fans would get a penalty for getting in the way of the bullets.
    Vern and Gary in the CBS booth would say, “Wow, look at Tebow putting all of those fans out of their misery! He loves all people, even the other teams fans!”

    Look at that game yesterday. Arkansas should have finished the Gators off like 20 times, but couldn’t. Then they got that bull shit unnecessary roughness penalty on that lineman. That was the turning point and it was because of the officials. Now, Arkansas had plenty of opportunities, but the officials did play a role in the outcome.

    SEC officials have been terrible this year.

  139. 139
    Adam M Says:

    @138 I agree. The few SEC games I’ve watched this year have left me horrified. Of course, I usually feel that way when watching the absurdities of the football rule book be determined by officials, but this year has looked particularly awful. Florida players could have shot several of the Arkansas players and not gotten called yesterday. It was so egregious that even the Tebow boosters in the booth found themselves complaining.

  140. 140
    Grst Says:

    @16 “Basically, the argument for Cox is he creates a positive atmosphere that produces enough extra hits, walks, XBH, “caught balls”, strikeouts, non gopher balls, etc. to equal what he manages away.”

    That’s a conveniently untestable argument. But since you’ve “reached a conclusion” by pulling a number out of a hat, who am I to argue?

  141. 141
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    The Angels would’ve won, defense and all, if Brian Fuentes hadn’t thrown a meatball to Alex Rodriguez in an 0-2 count.

  142. 142
    spike (back in the ATL) Says:

    The Angels would’ve won, defense and all, if Brian Fuentes hadn’t thrown a meatball to Alex Rodriguez in an 0-2 count.

    That choker? Who wouldn’t throw him a strike?

  143. 143
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Whoo-hoo!

    Alabama Crimson Tide jump Florida Gators for No. 1 spot in AP Top 25 – ESPN

  144. 144
    sdp Says:

    I want to see Yankees-Dodgers so I can see Torre take down the Yanks. That would be awesome.

  145. 145
    Mac Thomason Says:

    I want to see Angels-Phillies because the Yankees and Dodgers are evil.

  146. 146
    braves14 Says:

    braves14′s SEC power rankings:

    1. Alabama 7-0
    2. Florida 6-0
    3. LSU 5-1
    4. South Carolina 5-2
    5. Arkansas 3-3
    6. Georgia 4-3
    7. Auburn 5-2
    8. Tennessee 3-3
    9. Ole Miss 4-2
    10. Kentucky 3-3
    11. Mississippi State 3-4
    12. Vanderbilt 2-5

    It was really difficult this week. 4-9 are pretty much interchangable.

  147. 147
    Smitty Says:

    braves 14,

    Did anyone else miss the Vols waxing UGA last weekend?

    Congrats Bama! I was hoping my Vols could play two number ones this season. THIRD WEEK IN OCTOBER!

  148. 148
    ringer Says:

    rode back to the city
    with yankees fans from upstate
    they spent the whole trip
    seeing how fast they could drain bud lights
    if atlanta fans had this option
    they would be better fans

    is there a correlation between quality mass trans
    or at least a population dependent on it
    and the GREAT baseball fans

    Cubs Fans?
    Mets?
    Yankees?

    just a thought
    because as we all know
    drinking=caring more
    expressing more
    etc.

  149. 149
    braves14 Says:

    Like I said, they’re interchangable. I can’t put Tennessee higher than 8th, who lost to Auburn who is 7th (and looked like crap the last 2 or 3 games). Also, I can’t overlook UGA beating some of the higher teams on the list before losing to UT, and they looked better yesterday although it was Vanderbilt. South Carolina and Arkansas have generally looked better than the other (not top 3) teams and played Bama and UF tough yesterday. In addition, UT lost to a bad UCLA team at home in Week 2.

  150. 150
    braves14 Says:

    BCS rankings released:

    1. Florida
    2. Bama
    3. Texas
    4. Boise
    5. Cincy

  151. 151
    ryan c Says:

    @148
    i read that as poetry and it was confusing…

  152. 152
    Mike N. Says:

    I also thought that was a poem and was wondering why it had no symbolism, rhyming, etc…

  153. 153
    Smitty Says:

    The Titans are positioning themselves very nicely in the Eric Berry sweepstakes.

  154. 154
    ububba Says:

    Smitty,
    They gotta lotta competition. I’ve never seen the NFL with so many really bad teams.

    #148
    One of the weirder things about mass transit in New York is that it’s illegal to consume alcoholic beverages on the subway, but it’s not illegal to consume them on the LIRR.

    Don’t even think about carrying a 40 on the D Train to Yankee Stadium—you’ll probably get busted & you might miss the game. It’s a police festival up there on game nights.

    I once saw a guy drinking from a bag on the 4 train & get mildly admonished by another guy on the train. The drinker kinda blew him off, but that guy turned out to be an undercover cop and, as soon as they pulled into 161st Street, the dumbass got cited. The cop was trying to give him a break, but because he wasn’t nice, he got an appearance ticket.

    But the LIRR, like European trains, even has bar cars. (Not sure if it’s the same on New Jersey Transit, but I think Metro North trains are cool like that.)

    For example, it’s about a 28-minute ride from Port Washington (where I work) to Flushing (where the Mets often lose) and I’ve seen groups of Met fans consume entire cases in that time. They even let you finish up on the platform when you arrive, but don’t go upstairs with any beers on the walkway to the stadium. Copfest.

    Long Islanders going to events at or near Madison Square Garden—located above Penn Station—tank up on the 44-minute LIRR trip. Depending on the concert or the sport—metal & hockey fans seem to be thirstiest—it can get pretty wild on those trains.

    However, the LIRR does not allow alcohol on “amateur night” (aka New Years Eve), which is certainly a service to the rest of humanity.

  155. 155
    Smitty Says:

    Ububba,

    Yeah, I know. The Lions, Bucks, Rams, Redskins and Chiefs all will be in the running

  156. 156
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    Spike, it’s true, A-Rod often chokes under pressure. But trying to sneak an 88-mile an hour fastball belt-high out over the plate in a two-strike count when he has to swing isn’t exactly a great way to make sure he keeps choking.

  157. 157
    Coach (2010-Mr.Overrated retires) Says:

    How about them Vikings! Man, I was sweating bullets at the end but fate smiled on us and Baltimore’s kicker shanked what would have been the winning field goal and my Purple people eaters hung on to win 33-31. but what a hell of a football game. Back and forth it went in the second half as both offenses kept piling up the points.

    6-0 and who knows, maybe this could be that magical 16-0 season?

  158. 158
    ringer Says:

    to ububba

    I was on metro north (poughkeepsie (which must be a mets town))
    the yankees fans started in the bar next to the station
    and kept going onto the train. I knew they were planning on getting bombed because they were wearing t-shirts.

    Atlanta just doesn’t have that option. I am an absolute believer in the south being superior to the north. At least in that your life doesn’t have to center around the MTA just every other jackass with a car and access to I-75 or I-20.

    The GSP & Atlanta Metro PDs just make sure our fans arrive safely and care less while the exorbitant prices within the stadium make sure they stay that way.

    The homeless outside the ted who become your best friend when you tail gate don’t help either.

  159. 159
    Mac Thomason Says:

    Howard triples. Boy, he sure doesn’t do anything but hit home runs, someone once said.

  160. 160
    billy-jay Says:

    I hear that Howard guy is overrated.

  161. 161
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    159,
    And he started a double play in the same game. Which opened up a portal to an alternate universe.

  162. 162
    sdp Says:

    I don’t know about you, but Torii Hunter strikes me as an ass.

  163. 163
    ububba Says:

    I got a bad feeling about this Falcons game.

    Ringer,
    Towns that don’t have mass transit or don’t use their existing mass transit are vastly inferior in my book. I live in NYC with a car & I almost always prefer to take mass transit.

    I’m a native Georgian, but every time I visit Atlanta it just makes me think that, traffic-wise, it’s turning into a mini-LA. That’s not a good thing.

    #162
    Yeah, Hunter’s gotta keep that to himself. I’m sure his closer and his catcher are less than thrilled with that bit.

  164. 164
    ububba Says:

    OK, I feel a little better.

  165. 165
    Rob Cope Says:

    Have there ever been two teams so neck-and-neck in the polls? Alabama had a 1447-1434 difference in the AP polls, Florida had them 1464-1398 and by about .3 points in the BCS. All in all, for the rankings that matter (the BCS), and the majority of polls (BCS & Coaches vs. AP), Florida’s still ahead, but it’s not by much.

    I’m coming to the conclusion that I don’t know what to think, and I won’t know until December. Florida needed a last-second field goal, but Alabama had South Carolina by a touchdown until the last minute of the game. They were both close, with Florida’s closer.

    I’m going to throw out a statement and I’d like to see if anyone disagrees: as of right now, Tebow is the front-runner for the Heisman after showing up so big on those last 2 drives in the Arkansas game and playing well after a concussion in the LSU game. I’m sure some will disagree, so I just want to hear anyone else’s take. If the Heisman shouldn’t go to Tebow, who should it go to? I would say if Tebow doesn’t win it, Mark Ingram should.

  166. 166
    Smitty Says:

    After the Vols beat Bama this weekend…

  167. 167
    Coach (2010- Mr. Overrated retires) Says:

    The 2009 version of the Philadelphia Phillies look even better than the 2008 World Champions. Scary indeed!

  168. 168
    csg Says:

    right now, Ingram has to be in the top 3 for Heisman

  169. 169
    braves14 Says:

    I’d say the top 3 right now are Ingram, Tebow, and Clausen.

  170. 170
    billy-jay Says:

    Falcons!

  171. 171
    ububba Says:

    Whew.

    I’m certainly not counting my chickens here, but the Falcons could make history this year–first time they’ve ever had back-to-back winning seasons. A modest goal, sure, but I’ll take it.

    Heisman? Ask me in 6 weeks when the biggest games are completed.

    Polls? Computers? Shame such a great sport relies on something so completely ridiculous. It’s a tradition worth ditching.

    Re: Tebow
    Florida’s offense isn’t what it was last year, so it seems that Tebow has to run a whole lot more in big spots. Like his sophomore year, he’s an FB at QB.

    Demps is good, but he’s no Harvin, who seemed like he was a threat to score on every carry. Also, they don’t have a Louis Murphy on this team. (Although their WRs seem to have patented the pull-the-CB’s-jersey trick. I’ve seen it work for TDs vs LSU this year & UGA last year.)

    If I wore orange–and that would never happen, of course–I’d still be worried about Tebow’s noggin.

    That said, their defense is still among the best (assuming Spikes is alright) & I can’t imagine they’ll drop the ball all over the field like they did the other day. (Hard to lose, too, if the other team’s placekicker doesn’t cooperate.) The Dome rematch should be another great one.

  172. 172
    Coach (2010-Mr.Overrated retires) Says:

    Anyone notice that Charlie Manuel Left Cliff Lee in the game to pitch eight innings in spite of the 11-0 blow out? I would have gone one further, and let Lee finish the complete game had I been managing.

    At any rate, at least Manuel didn’t have the opportunity to screw things up like he did in game two. Taking Pedro out of the game after seven innings, even though Pedro had a two hit shut out going and just 87 pitches thrown……. shades of Bobby Cox no less!

    The Phillies are up 2-1 in the NLCS but they should be leading it 3-0. O How I love managers, can’t live without them, can’t kill’em.

  173. 173
    P. W. Hjort Says:

    172,
    I don’t think leaving Cliff Lee in there for the 9th would’ve been a good decision. They were winning 11-0 and Lee had thrown 114 pitches. If I’m Manuel, I go to the 13th pitcher on the staff for the 9th. Give Cliff Lee and the high-leverage relievers a rest. Save them for the more meaningful innings. Up by 11 with 3 outs to get is about as meaningless of an inning as you’ll see in the post-season. No reason to push the envelope with your starter in that situation. At that point, Manuel’s already thinking about game 4 and beyond, and it’s probably better to ensure your starter will be adequately rested than to let him pitch the 9th. Maybe it’s different if Cliff Lee were at around 100 pitches, but I think he made the right call tonight.

    Close game? Different story. Taking Pedro out after 7 was really stupid, especially with the shaky bullpen they’ve got.

    Of course, Bobby Cox probably would’ve gone to Mike Gonzalez for the 9th, which would’ve been arguably worse.

  174. 174
    hankonly Says:

    Didn’t somebody once get fired for leaving Pedro in one inning too long?

  175. 175
    Mac Thomason Says:

    New thread/poll.

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