Braves Journal, The House That Mac Built

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19 Oct

Keltner List: Kenny Lofton

Mac made it an offseason tradition to write a “Keltner List” for one ex-Brave who either was on the cusp of the Hall of Fame, or in Mac’s opinion, should have been considered worthy. It’s called “Keltner List” in reference to Ken Keltner, a third baseman who’s a charter member of the Hall of the Very Good: basically, if a player is better than Ken Keltner then Bill James thought that they had a serious case for the Hall, whereas a player worse than Ken Keltner shouldn’t receive serious consideration. You can read the previous ones Mac did here.

He always began with the following preamble: The Keltner List was developed by Bill James as a device to evaluate a player’s Hall of Fame candidacy. In The Politics of Glory [also known as Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?] James says that it is probably his favorite tool to do that. (You can read about the background in that book, or do a Google search, for further information.)

Mac did Keltner lists for Javy Lopez, Andres Galarraga, and Fred McGriff, and concluded that McGriff belonged in the Hall but the other two fell short. Other than McGriff, in the past two decades, the Braves have had four position players who might also be considered worthy of the Hall.

The first, Chipper Jones, is certainly going in. The second, Andruw Jones, had a Hall of Fame decade with the Braves and then had a Dale Murphy-like crash that may cost him his candidacy. The third, Gary Sheffield, is a member of the 500-homer club, but lingering suspicions over his possible steroid use–along with the fact that during his career he was perceived as a malcontent–will likely conspire to keep him out. The fourth was Kenny Lofton.

The Braves fan base likely has no love lost with Kenny and vice versa, but Lofton was nonetheless one of the best centerfielders of his era. Let’s run the Keltner List for him.

  1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

    No. No one would have thought this even for a moment. During his prime, the most acclaimed players in the American League would probably been Frank Thomas and then Ken Griffey Jr. He was probably the second-best center fielder in the AL, after Griffey, from 1992 until 2000.

    Lofton left the AL for a single year, in 1997 with the Braves, and he was arguably the best center fielder in the NL that year. (Lofton is a hair behind Ray Lankford by WAR, but Lofton played fewer games and Lofton was generally a better player than Lankford in that period.) Andruw Jones moved to right field to accommodate him. After Lofton left, Jones moved back to center — and was immediately the best center fielder in the league.

  2. Was he the best player on his team?

    Yes. He was probably the best player on the Indians from 1992-1994. He actually led the Braves in WAR in 1997 — he’s ahead of Jeff Blauser by 0.3 rWAR and 0.0 fWAR. (You could say that they’re neck and neck, but Lofton was better than Blauser by a healthy margin for the entire decade, so I’d give it to Lofton.) He also led the Indians in WAR when he returned in 1998, but at the end of that season the Indians signed Roberto Alomar, who immediately became their best player. At that point, Lofton was 32 years old. He played for the Indians for two more years, and then he played for nine different teams in his last six seasons.

  3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

    The best center fielder in baseball for most of his prime was Griffey Jr., then Andruw Jones. He may have been the best center fielder in the National League in 1997, though Ray Lankford was a very good player in his prime, and has him beat on WAR.

  4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

    Quite a few. Lofton was on hand for five first-place finishes by the Indians — he missed the 1997 AL championship, but was there for the 1995 World Series and pennants in 1996, 1998, 1999, and 2001. He was one of the best players on all of these teams. (Edit: actually, he contributed to six first-place Indians squads. As mentioned below, he was a midseason addition to the 2007 team.) Since 1948 — the last time the Indians won the World Series — the Indians have been to the playoffs eight times, and Lofton contributed to all but two: 1954, when Willie Mays made The Catch; and 1997, when he was with the Braves.

    Lofton was in Cleveland from 1992-1996 and 1998-2001, and then he became a journeyman. In 2002, he began the year with the White Sox, and he was having a decent enough year for a 33-year old center fielder, putting up a 102 OPS+ with basically average defense. Then the Giants traded a couple minor leaguers who never did anything for Lofton, who replaced the awful-hitting Tsuyoshi Shinjo in center field. They were 58-47 at the time, six games back. They went 37-19 for the rest of the year, finished in second place and won the wild card, and wound up losing the World Series to the Angels.

    His most notable pennant race was probably 2003. He began the year with the Pirates, and he was having a decent enough year for a 35-year old center fielder, putting up a 98 OPS+ with basically average defense. Then the Cubs traded for him on July 23 (it was a notorious salary dump; the Pirates threw in Aramis Ramirez, and all they got back was Jose Hernandez, Bobby Hill, and Matt Bruback). At the time of the trade, the Cubs were 50-50, in 3rd place, 5.5 games out. Lofton hit leadoff and replaced Corey Patterson in center field, hitting .327 in 56 games, during which time the Cubs went 38-24 and won the division. They lost to the Marlins in the NLCS, which you probably remember, but still.

    He went to the playoffs with the Yankees in 2004, but he was basically Bernie Williams’s backup and didn’t have a great deal of effect on the pennant race; he went to the playoffs with the Dodgers in 2006 and was the regular center fielder but he really wasn’t very good, as his defense had slipped badly.

    He finally came back to Cleveland in late July of 2007, taking over for Jason Michaels. At the time, the Indians were 60-43 and a half-game out of first; they went 36-23 with him, and won the division by eight games. They lost the ALCS to the Yankees, famously, but Lofton was terrific, playing all four games and batting .375 while batting seventh. The Indians haven’t been back to the playoffs since.

  5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

    Yes. He spent the last six years of his career as a supreme journeyman, but few teams could regret his on-field results. Three different teams made the playoffs after acquiring him midseason. He was a five-to seven-win player at his peak, from 1992 to 1999. But after that, he was more or less a three-win player through 2005.

    He aged extremely gracefully — unlike Jones, his center field replacement in Atlanta. And unlike Bernie Williams, who basically stopped being a useful player after 2002, when he was 33. Certainly unlike the players that he was acquired to replace: Shinjo, Patterson, and Michaels. Unlike his predecessors in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, Marlon Byrd and Milton Bradley.

    Center field is a grueling position. Lofton played it exceptionally for nearly a decade, and quite well for the better part of a decade after that.

  6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

    Not at all. Among eligible players, that may well be Jeff Bagwell. But there are a lot of as-yet ineligible players who have a much better case than Lofton, like Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Chipper Jones, Albert Pujols, and of course Ken Griffey Jr. (Lofton has never been connected to PEDs, as have Bonds and Rodriguez, so it’s hard to tell exactly how voters will evaluate his candidacy against theirs.)

    Still, even before Barry Bonds’s head started expanding, he was a much, much better player than Lofton.

  7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

    Depends on how you look at it. By Similarity Scores on baseball-reference, only three of his most similar players are in the Hall, but none of them have particularly comparable stats. As Bill James would say, this means that Kenny Lofton is a historically unique player, and that usually applies to extraordinary players more than ordinary players.

    In the history of baseball, there are somewhere between 10 and 20 center fielders who have amassed at least 60 Wins Above Replacement. Lofton’s around 65 WAR. Per B-R WAR, the number is 10, and all seven of the eligible players are in: Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Duke Snider, and Richie Ashburn. The ineligible players are Griffey, who will definitely be in; Carlos Beltran, who could make it if he has a few more years like this; and Lofton.

    Per Fangraphs WAR, there are 21 center fielders with at least 60, of whom 16 are eligible for the Hall and 12 of those 16 are in the Hall of Fame. The ineligibles are Griffey, Beltran, Lofton, and Andruw Jones and Jim Edmonds, both of whom deserve a Keltner list of their own. The four eligible players who are not in the Hall are Willie Davis, Tommy Leach, Reggie Smith, and Jimmy Wynn, and Wynn and Smith have often been hailed as more deserving of the Hall than Dawson and Jim Rice.

    If you look at WAR, Kenny Lofton’s one of the very best center fielders of all time who is not in the Hall of Fame.

  8. Do the player’s numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

    No. Bill James developed four Hall of Fame stats to try to measure the likelihood that a player would make it in, and Lofton falls slightly short by these.

    By Hall of Fame Standards, Lofton comes close but does not meet the bar. By Black Ink (times he led the league in things), he’s at 15, where the average Hall of Famer is at 27; by Gray Ink (times he appeared on the leaderboard) he’s at 62, where an average Hall of Famer is at 62 144. By the Hall of Fame Monitor, he’s at 91, while a likely HOFer is at 100, and by the Hall of Fame Standards, he’s at 42 while an average Hall of Famer is 50.

  9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

    Not really. He was a truly superb defensive center fielder during his first decade, which WAR reflects but James’s HOF stats and Similarity Scores do not. He was also generally considered to be a jerk, which is one reason why so many of his stops were brief, despite the fact that he was terrific on the field.

  10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

    Depends on who you ask. Fangraphs WAR prefers Reggie Smith, but baseball-reference WAR would consider Lofton to be the best center fielder of all time who is eligible for the Hall but has not yet made it. However, if you expand his position to “outfield,” then Tim Raines may be a slightly better candidate.

    But that will evaporate in a couple of years, when Ken Griffey Jr. becomes eligible. And Andruw Jones will have an interesting case in eight or ten years, depending on when he retires.

  11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

    Lofton really only had one MVP-type season, 1994, when he batted .349 and stole 60 bases in 112 games. Unfortunately, the ball was jumping off everybody’s bat that year, and Lofton finished fourth behind Frank Thomas (.353 BA, 38 HRs), Ken Griffey Jr. (.323 BA, 40 HRs), and Albert Belle (.357 BA, 36 HRs). If you add in Lofton’s defense, he may have been the best player in the league–he led the league in rWAR, for what it’s worth–but he wasn’t beating out all of those guys.

    Lofton’s fourth-place finish in 1994 is the only time he finished in the top 10, though he also received downballot votes in 1993, 1996, and 1997. Overall, he has 0.58 career MVP shares, which is about right. He was often good to great, but rarely transcendent.

  12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go into the Hall of Fame?

    Kenny Lofton was selected to six All-Star Games and definitely should have been selected to two more, in his rookie 1992 and his stellar 1993. Six All-Star selections does not put him in illustrious company, though it is hardly a disqualifier. Eight All-Star selections would look a lot better — it wouldn’t guarantee him a spot in the Hall, but it would make him look like he belonged.

    As it happens, exactly 130 Hall of Famers have appeared in at least one All-Star game. Sixty-three of them have appeared in nine or more, and 68 have appeared in eight or fewer. But just 43 of 125 have appeared in six or fewer. If you give Lofton credit for eight, then he’s an above-average Hall of Famer by that standard. If you count his six as is, then he’s below-average.

  13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

    No. On his pennant-winning teams in Cleveland, he was usually one of the best three players, rather than the single best player. He was a very useful piece, but he couldn’t carry a team.

  14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

    Not that I am aware of, no.

  15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

    No. As previously mentioned, he was kind of a jerk.

Conclusion:

Lofton’s candidacy basically depends on how much of a WAR-determinist you are. By WAR, he meets the standards for a Hall of Fame center fielder. But he was not perceived as a future Hall of Famer when he was playing, and James’s Hall of Fame predictors appear to predict that he will fall just short.

And that makes sense: I’m guessing that hardly any of the commenters on this blog post will believe that Lofton deserves to make it. In 2010, the baseball-reference.com blog had a poll, and 50 percent of respondents said that they believed he deserved to go into the Hall. And again, that makes sense: he feels like the kind of guy who will never be able to get over the 40-50 percent plateau. (That would make him like Dale Murphy, who was otherwise very different from Lofton in most ways: major power hitter, beloved by teammates, and fell off a cliff at age 32.)

Having said all that, Lofton was one of the best center fielders of his era, a dynamic leadoff hitter who was a vital cog in numerous pennant races. If he weren’t such a jerk, he would be remembered fondly by fans of the Giants and Cubs, whom he helped to achieve some of their greatest recent success. Instead, he’s really only claimed by Indians fans, who basically have experienced no success whatsoever without him. And even they would probably prefer to vote for Omar Vizquel.

Through Mac’s influence, I’ve become more of a big-Hall guy, and so I wouldn’t have much of a problem with seeing Lofton in the Hall. He was a really, really good player for a very long time. There are a lot of borderline-type players I’d rather in there first, though, especially Andruw Jones and Scott Rolen.

Lofton will be eligible in 2013. I’d vote for him. I guess.

77 Responses to “Keltner List: Kenny Lofton”

  1. 1
    PaulV Says:

    It takes a team of smart hard working people to sub for Hall of Famer Mac Thomason. Thanks, but we all miss him.

  2. 2
    ralphdibny Says:

    Thanks for this, Alex. Very interesting reading.

    I’m a Big-Hall guy, too, but I don’t think my Hall is big enough for Lofton. What I mean is that, as you note in your concluding sentences, there are or will be too many guys in front of him in the line that I’d want to go in before him. Tim Raines, Andruw, Murph, Sheffield, Crime Dog, and probably lots of others I’m forgetting right now.

  3. 3
    Coop Says:

    Thanks, AAR. It may have already beendone, but I’d like to see a Keltner List done on Richie Allen. The guy always scared me, but he also seemed to be the posterior of one of the horses he loved. His “If horses can’t eat it, I don’t want to play on it” is still one of my all-time favorite baseball quotes.

    As for Lofton, I never learned to love the guy despite his positive attributes.

  4. 4
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    I’d read a Dick Allen Keltner List. Classic example of a guy whose poor reputation killed his candidacy.

  5. 5
    sansho1 Says:

    Excellent analysis. The similarity scores don’t adjust for era — if they did, Ashburn would be the obvious comp, I think. Ashburn would have been a 40-50 SB/year guy if he’d played in Lofton’s era. Raines’ struggle with his candidacy probably spells doom for Lofton, but I’d vote for him.

  6. 6
    Ray Says:

    I always thought highly of Lofton, and wouldn’t mind if he got in. But I doubt he will make it. I actually can’t remember him being a jerk. Are there any examples of his jerkiness?

  7. 7
    Jick Says:

    I second the request in #6. Why did Bobby dislike him, do we know?

    The Lofton acquisition was the David Justice trade. The strike had destroyed any ideals I may have had, but 11-year-old me was thoroughly depressed by the loss of David Justice. I grew to like Lofton anyway because I always approved of the speedy leadoff types, but man, was I mad about that trade.

  8. 8
    Mark Grogan Says:

    I believe he played his music too loud in the clubhouse. That should keep anybody out of the Hall.

  9. 9
    Mark Grogan Says:

    MIKE BERARDINO ON BASEBALL, from the Sunsentinal.com 2002, refering to the Indians clubhouse. I hope I haven’t broken any copyright laws:

    Listen closely, and you just might discover the reason for the Cleveland Indians’ fast start.

    Don’t hear anything? Well, that’s precisely the point. Or so says Indians reliever Paul Shuey, who claims the team has grown closer since the departure of center fielder/DJ Kenny Lofton.

    “I think not having music in the clubhouse had a lot to do with the way people felt about one another in the past,” Shuey told Cleveland reporters. “There isn’t music in the clubhouse anymore, and there’s no more animosity in here. …

    “In the past, Kenny would put a lot of that crap on, and a lot of guys didn’t want it on. But he was constantly pushing it. This year we’ve got 25 guys trying to reach the same goal every day, instead of worrying about what music they’re going to play in the clubhouse.”

    Thank you, Mike Berardino. Delete me if I have erred.

  10. 10
    Mark Grogan Says:

    More Lofton information at the bottom of this article, with a Bobby Cox reference in the middle:

    http://www.capanson.com/pressrelease3.html

  11. 11
    Jick Says:

    Thanks, Mark Grogan.

  12. 12
    el_gato_grande Says:

    @7 – Yup, I was 10, and I was crushed. Actually was so distraught, I wasn’t paying attention and smashed my fingers in a door right after hearing about it. I loved Justice and Grissom. For whatever reason, though, I took an immediate and inexplicable liking to Alan Embree. Did he have sideburns? Ligtenberg immediately won my 10-year old support that way.

  13. 13
    Dan Says:

    Lofton for on Mac’s list too:

    Kenny Lofton… For the whole “The Braves wouldn’t let me play my music loud” thing.

    http://www.bravesjournal.us/?p=1658

  14. 14
    PaulV Says:

    el_gato_grande, after reading Mark Grogan’s link you may be fined a week allowance.

  15. 15
    Kevin Lee Says:

    I’m going to post a link here to a recent Lofton interview:

    http://www.cleveland.com/dman/index.ssf/2010/08/post_8.html

    I’ve never been able to put my finger on why I didn’t like Lofton. Always grabbed for him when I needed a CF for table games or computer games during those two decades.

    But his bitchin’ here maybe says more about his attitude than any anecdote I can provide.

    Thanks, Alex. There you go making me think again.

  16. 16
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    I think Kenny’s arrogant, but I think he had the arrogance that most great players have: it’s sort of aggressive version of believing in yourself. He didn’t have to be as honest as he was in that interview, and he definitely could have worked harder to ingratiate himself with his teammates.

    But a hell of a player. I always respected him.

  17. 17
    MikeM Says:

    @12 – Yeah, Justice was my favorite player at the time and I like Grissom a lot too (I played outfield in little league). The news of the trade depressed me for a while. I was 11 and it was my introduction into the whole trading away good players thing. I just remember asking my dad 100 times, “But……WHY would they trade him?!”

  18. 18
    One Eye Says:

    What I remember most about Lofton was we also picked up Micheal Tucker that season to play LF/RF. Tucker got off to an incredible start and I thought he was ready to be a superstar. Then he came back to earth and never really did anything else in his career.

  19. 19
    justhank Says:

    Great work, Alex. Thank you.

    If Richie Allen did was indeed the first to say “Phillie fans would boo a cancer cure”, then all is forgiven.

    He should be in the Hall just for that.

  20. 20
    Dan Says:

    Tigers-Cardinals: battle of the two 80-something win teams.

    What a snoozer.

  21. 21
    sansho1 Says:

    @DadBoner is taking his inevitable firing better than I thought. Quality parting shots.

  22. 22
    Coop Says:

    @ 19: wonderful.

  23. 23
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    @21 Yeah, I figured he’d be steamed.

  24. 24
    kc Says:

    Good work, but I just don’t have much feeling toward the guy. He was a fine player for us for one season, and we got him so we have enough money left by getting rid of Justice and Grissom to sign Maddux and Glavine to an extension. That was the first time I ever heard the Braves had payroll constriant and the need to get rid of contracts.

  25. 25
    Coop Says:

    Barry Zito. Who’da thunk it? What year is this?

  26. 26
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    Turns out that when it comes to farting sunshine, two can play that game.

  27. 27
    PaulV Says:

    @25 Maybe our long national nightmare will be over if SF can win next 2 games.

  28. 28
    fm Says:

    Lulz.
    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/bearded-man-robs-st-louis-area-bank-shouts-235806082–mlb.html

  29. 29
    Stu Says:

    Nicely done, Alex.

    Been away for a bit, but I wanted to chime in on the what-to-do-in-free-agency discussion from the previous thread: I’d go after Greinke and Pagan and roll with a Gattis-or-Johnson/Francisco platoon, shuffling Martin between left and third. Second choice would be to leave Martin at third, sign Greinke and Swisher, and trade for Dexter Fowler.

    I. Want. Greinke.

  30. 30
    Bethany Says:

    @29 Yes. This. Please.

  31. 31
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    So let’s get down to brass tacks. What would you pay for Greinke? (The Lowe experience is fresh in my mind, and I supported that contract, so I’m fully aware that I’d have to want them to spend a good deal more on Zack.)

    My first thought was 4/$80, but he’ll probably command a deal for more than four years. 5/$96, maybe?

  32. 32
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    And also, yes, Pagan. He looks like a ballplayer to me. That catch against Yadi was awesome.

  33. 33
    Coop Says:

    I’ve changed my mind about Pagan’s defense, based on what I’ve seen against the Cards. He’s not young Andruw, but he’s a player.

    Greinke would be a nice-to-have, but we could also do nicely without him. Medlen-Minor-Huddy-Maholm, then Delgado/Teheran until Beachy returns. Is Greinke the best use of our available money?

  34. 34
    Bethany Says:

    Stu, what was up with that fake punt?

  35. 35
    Stu Says:

    Worst play calling decision in at least three coaching staffs (11 seasons). Completely inexplicable. That’s sort of been part of the deal with Franklin, though, and so far, the good has outweighed the bad. Maybe the over-agression will stop once he feels like he’s recruited a roster full of SEC athletes…

    But, man, we should have a lead right now.

  36. 36
    Bethany Says:

    I think Vanderbilt might have the better team. All it will take is one big play to pull away. I get going for it on 4th and inches at midfield, but the punt was just like “what?”

  37. 37
    Stu Says:

    Wish he would’ve called for a replay of the third-down spot prior to going for it on fourth. Think we got a pretty bad spot.

  38. 38
    Bethany Says:

    @37 Yeah, I thought he had it easy. He should have just dove forward then he got scared or something and tried to go right.

    Yeah, Auburn is the worst team in college football right now.

  39. 39
    Dan Says:

    Is Greinke the best use of our available money?

    Yes. Greinke probably provides more wins over Delgado throughout a full season than a lot of these mediocre free agent outfielders would.

  40. 40
    Adam M Says:

    A’s just landed Chris Young for pretty much nothing. I’m assuming Crisp will be moved now.

  41. 41
    Anon21 Says:

    39: Don’t restrict yourself to this year’s class of free agents, which is really pretty bad. Think 2014, think trades, and don’t think about tying down a quarter or a third of your payroll for a long time just because Greinke’s the best that’s on offer.

  42. 42
    Rob Cope Says:

    Go Gators.

  43. 43
    Stu Says:

    Think 2014

    2014 and beyond is actually why I want Greinke. Once Maholm is gone and Beachy’s healthy, you’re talking about:

    Greinke
    Beachy
    Medlen
    Minor
    Hudson?/Teheran?/Delgado?

    That’s . . . not bad.

  44. 44
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    I’ve been promoting some version of the Greinke plan all along–even though I can’t envision him going for less than 5/110, and that would be taking a discount to join a specific team like the Braves. But if we go that route rather than signing any other free agents–especially expensive long term guys like Swisher or Pagan–we should be looking to trade a bunch of MLB ready (or close to ready) starting pitching for shorter term solutions, using leftover cash to lock up at least Prado and Heyward.
    Apart from differential WAR another good thing about spending your money on the best starting pitcher available is that he can only lock up one rotation spot and you can always make room if another Wainwright comes along. But there is way less flexibility when you start plugging up other spots.

  45. 45
    jjschiller Says:

    The D’backs traded Chris Young for Cliff Pennington?

    Didn’t Wren tell them that Paul Janish was available?

    Come on! Get in the game, Wren!

  46. 46
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Speaking of not clogging up left field, an Evan Gattis update from Venezuela:

    .400/.733/1.133

    How does one slug .733? Have 30ABs an get 11 hits, with 5 of them 2Bs and 2 of them HRs.

    He’s mainly been DHing, but tonight he’s playing LF.

  47. 47
    Adam M Says:

    Yeah, I would have liked Chris Young too, though prob as a platoon player. I expect Wren to try and sign someone for too much, fail, and then fall ass backwards into a surprisingly good move.

  48. 48
    sansho1 Says:

    The D’Backs were beyond ready to dump Young.

  49. 49
    dead bob Says:

    lofton will never be considered a true brave, in fact, his only true-ness was as a wanker, in every respect…
    hall of famer?
    that’s a big negative.

  50. 50
    Coop Says:

    Well, the stars have aligned for the Dawgs. I hope they play better next week than they did today. However, there wasn’t much to complain about in Murray’s game today.

  51. 51
    fm Says:

    Is there any way to control/block the ads on the left side of this site? I got kind of ticked off when I came here and the ad featured Cardinals postseason gear.

  52. 52
    JonathanF Says:

    fm: stop going on Cardinals sites. Then you’ll get ads for the same stupid things I get ads for — from sites I go to.

  53. 53
    Dan Says:

    Bring back the BravesJournal ‘Roman orgy’ banner ads.

    http://i55.tinypic.com/25qc66u.png

  54. 54
    I. Melvin Says:

    Made ya sweat, didn’t we, Dawgs?

  55. 55
    JoeCraigMcMurtry Says:

    Sabathia is making a visit to Dr. Andrews. If the news is bad I have a feeling the price of starting pitching will go way up.

  56. 56
    justhank Says:

    Why does Greinke scare me? I think Alex named my fears when he typed the words “Derek Lowe”.

    I’m probably just shell-shocked but can you imagine what the Braves could have done with Lowe’s salary the last few years?

  57. 57
    justhank Says:

    Scared ya, didn’t we, Dawg fans?

  58. 58
    Stu Says:

    Greinke and Lowe both throw with their right hand, and . . . that’s about the extent of their common ground as pitchers. Age, stuff, performance — Greinke has a big edge in relevant factors.

  59. 59
    Coop Says:

    justhank @ 56: Yes.

  60. 60
    Trace Says:

    This Georgia team reeks of the 2008 version. Loads of talent but just plain soft.

  61. 61
    PaulV Says:

    @55 Yanks should resign Lowe, he knows how to win if Yanks could score runs.

  62. 62
    ryan c Says:

    With McCann likely out for 2 months, it’d be smart for the Braves to have Gattis strap on the catching gear this offseason. Gattis catching 2 and Ross catching 3 sounds like a nice plan for the start of the season.

  63. 63
    ryan c Says:

    With McCann likely out for 2 months, it’d be smart for the Braves to have Gattis strap on the catching gear this offseason. Gattis catching 2 and Ross catching 3 sounds like a nice plan for the start of the season.

  64. 64
    PaulV Says:

    With Gattis playing some LF and Pardo at 3B vs LH pitching, maybe a third catcher?

  65. 65
    I. Melvin Says:

    Saints cheating again.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the defender PUSHES the receiver out of bounds, the receiver has the right to return, re-establish and catch a tying touchdown, right?

  66. 66
    Coop Says:

    Go Giants.

  67. 67
    Adam R Says:

    If it makes anyone feel better, the Cards should’ve won their division and had the 3rd best record in the NL, according to BPro’s pythag standings…

  68. 68
    Anon21 Says:

    I’m pretty sure that if the Braves saw Gattis making an impact at catcher in 2013, they’d have gotten him more than 27 starts there in 2012. This all sounds like a lot of silly wishful thinking.

  69. 69
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    4-0 Giants.

    THAT makes me feel better.

  70. 70
    Coop Says:

    I repeat, go Giants.

  71. 71
    Bethany Says:

    @65 I was baffled by the call too.

  72. 72
    ryan c Says:

    @68
    The Braves moved him from catcher because he was destroying baseballs and they were trying to get him to the bigs if they needed him.

  73. 73
    PaulV Says:

    @72 Yes, the catching position was blocked at rhe time.

  74. 74
    fm Says:

    So both teams have won the last six elimination games in which they’ve played. Unstoppable force meets unmoving object tomorrow.

  75. 75
    Dan Says:

    the Cards should’ve won their division and had the 3rd best record in the NL, according to BPro’s pythag standings…

    “Should” have. A lot of teams and players can claim that they “should” have done a lot of things.

  76. 76
    PaulV Says:

    Braves were closer to winning division than Cards. A Reds Nats elimination game would have been fun.

  77. 77
    Alex Remington (Another Alex R.) Says:

    New thread.

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